[NT] INTP - ENTJ conflict

[Barlwooh]

After skimming through a couple of "descripe the other types" like threads on various forums i noticed it is sort of common for INTP's and ENTJ's showing mutual dislike of some sort. And after contemplating on my own experiences, of all the NT's ive met, ive had most problems with ENTJ's. Ten minutes on a dumb thread and having had two little arguments with one of the three NT's ive met in my life, ive collected enough information to see a distinct pattern here. Who needs tons of examples, trusting silly theories based on vague assumptions is fun.

Cant find a thread on the subject, so im just gonna make my own. I DID try to find one, i did excessive searching for.. well two minutes, but that was boring.

So ENTJ - INTP conflict. I see them as arrogant overcritical pricks, and they see me as an underachieving slacker interested in impractical stuff thats never gonna get me anywhere in life. What a nice starting point for a lasting friendship with unwavering mutual trust.

Okay the first problem ive had with ENTJ's. They want intelligent crap, thats okay, i like that too, but THEY WANT IT NOW. Hows my Ti gonna do that? INTP's need their own time to get to those "intelligent awesome ideas", that sounded weird, my ideas are just plain strange. ENTJ's however, more they talk, more they understand, and they expect the same from the INTP, damn quick Te. The "internal logical convo" i have with myself when i think of something takes time, thats Ti, but Te does that sort of instantly with outer stimuli, which makes me wanna cry when having a convo with an ENTJ.

And when im having a small confident ENTP wannabe moment, i can seem quick, but thats because of Ne. Im giggling like a girl, and then steps in the ENTJ and makes some really insightful Te filled remark, Ne goes "wat, wheres my fun, cannot see fun, no chocolaty giggles in that" and feeds the remark to Ti, which then might understand it, but the process makes INTP's (Well me) go quiet. AND IF the Ne state is maintained, ENTJ goes: "Cannot comprehend the complete dumbness of what i just heard, apply crush everything with Te robostate", and then again instant shut down for the INTP. To me it would seem ENTJ's expect efficiency in everything, efficient INTP? Umm, lol. Jokes too, jokes of NTJ's are intelligent, complex and insightful, whereas NTP's can do that too, but their jokes usually seem sort of silly or absurd most of the time. INTJ's ive met just tolerate even the dumb Ne stuff, but ENTJ's just need to get their own hyper intellectually critical version of that there.

But all of that was based on experiences with an ENTJ i dont really know that well, and im insecure around anyone i dont know. So i might just be describing ENTJ's effect on an already nervous INTP, and when im nervous i cannot talk, which then might be the actual problem i have around ENTJ's. INTP extroverting uses Ne, a shy INTP builds up courage to actually step up and say something, out comes the Ne thingy, and INTP confidence plunges down when the ENTJ gives a responce. There might be mutual respect, but ENTJ's, well what ive seen, DO NOT tolerate any kind of hesitation from people they might consider "intelligent" in some way.

Discussion of the INTP - ENTJ conflict, id like to hear ENTJ's version of this, if there even is a type related conflict.

 

[amazingdatagirl]

ENTJs can be tough customers - no sympathy expected, none given. I get along fine with "Executives" but I have had 20 years in the corporate world to get over my chocolaty giggles.

ESTJs are a different story...

 

[sculpting]

We used to have an ENTJ VP who was a total ball buster of a guy (although I was quite devoted to him). Everyone was terrified of him except for this one INTP guy who is about 40. He is this adorable round bellied, balding chemist with big coke bottle glasses. The ENTJ would be up making a grand speech about taking over the universe in front of the entire department and the INTP was just pop out with some hysterical sarcastic ass comment.

At first everybody was horrified, like, dude, dont you know he will KILL you??? But after a bit it just became the norm and gave everybody the chance to snicker a bit, because he was always right about whatever the funny point was. The ENTJ would just say "You alway have one in every audiance..."

 

[Virtual ghost]

We used to have an ENTJ VP who was a total ball buster of a guy (although I was quite devoted to him). Everyone was terrified of him except for this one INTP guy who is about 40. He is this adorable round bellied, balding chemist with big coke bottle glasses. The ENTJ would be up making a grand speech about taking over the universe in front of the entire department and the INTP was just pop out with some hysterical sarcastic ass comment.

At first everybody was horrified, like, dude, dont you know he will KILL you??? But after a bit it just became the norm and gave everybody the chance to snicker a bit, because he was always right about whatever the funny point was. The ENTJ would just say "You alway have one in every audiance..."

I would not be suprised that this is probably a type 5 thing. Since I can clearly see myself doing something like that. (actually I did stuff like that some scary teachers) There is simply something that forces you to toy with the person everyone is afraid of. Plus braking of social codex is usually a fun all by itself.

 

[rav3n]

If we think you're an idiot, we will treat you as such. If we respect your knowledge and intelligence, we can be patient since the end product will be worth the wait. Not sure how that differs from other types.

Of the three INTPs I've known in real life, we had a mutual respect for our strengths. They would force me to consider more and express myself more explicitly. They would love to tease me but that's okay, I would zing them right back. They also seemed to enjoy our double or triple entendre interactions and try to figure out the underlying meaning, although sometimes, they saw more into what was being expressed and would react negatively until intent was explained to them in a more explicit manner. When they would do that obsessive cycling over things that were trivial, they appreciated being drop kicked out of that cycle with a pinpointing of what was relevant. Can't say this always worked but of the times it did, it was appreciated.

 

[Mephistopheles]

ENTJs can look like lame douchebags superficially(especially if you get to know them in a working environment), but once you get past that, you see that their way more funny & caring than you thought originally. But I have to admit I usually also have some issues with ExTJs.

 

[Thalassa]

ENTJs can look like lame douchebags superficially(especially if you get to know them in a working environment), but once you get past that, you see that their way more funny & caring than you thought originally. But I have to admit I usually also have some issues with ExTJs.

My experience with ENTJs is either I love love love them...or find them overbearing, and yeah, kinda douchey. I figured out what it is - if you're on their side, if they like you, they can be downright effusive in their presentation, caring and funny, and taking care of people in "practical" ways rather than being overtly snuggly.

It sounds like you may have issues with ENTJs perhaps because of only knowing them either when they're indifferent to you (and therefore possibly objectifying you rather than seeing you as a human) or possibly are even competing with you.

Yes, I know I'm not INTP - I didn't even realize where I was posting until I already did it. I still think my input may have some validity to the topic.

 

[INTPness]

When they would do that obsessive cycling over things that were trivial, they appreciated being drop kicked out of that cycle with a pinpointing of what was relevant. Can't say this always worked but of the times it did, it was appreciated.

Yes, I do appreciate this. Sometimes they may come to me with something and I may not know where they're going with it and so my wheels will start spinning and then they will get right to the point and it sort of snaps me out of my pondering. *Back to reality*.

I really like ENTJ's, I really respect their work habits and productivity. What I don't get is that they're so intelligent, but they never want to just sit and have really good conversations (unless it's about how to "reach a goal" or "make a business deal" or some sort of "networking"). I really like picking their brains about topics, but they seem to have little tolerance for it. I have one friend who I will go over to his house and we'll get onto some topic, I'll ask questions and I'll challenge his answers (just basic "well, if this....then why that?"). About 5 or 10 minutes later, just when I'm starting to get into it and get to the good stuff, he'll go, "OK, you wanna watch a movie?" I wanna say, "No. I just wanna learn about this." He's not really interested for more than a few minutes.

 

[Glycerine]

^ Pick up on their passions. Once you do that, they can talk your head off. Rants on idiocy are always amusing.

 

[rav3n]

Yes, I do appreciate this. Sometimes they may come to me with something and I may not know where they're going with it and so my wheels will start spinning and then they will get right to the point and it sort of snaps me out of my pondering. *Back to reality*.

I really like ENTJ's, I really respect their work habits and productivity. What I don't get is that they're so intelligent, but they never want to just sit and have really good conversations (unless it's about how to "reach a goal" or "make a business deal" or some sort of "networking"). I really like picking their brains about topics, but they seem to have little tolerance for it. I have one friend who I will go over to his house and we'll get onto some topic, I'll ask questions and I'll challenge his answers (just basic "well, if this....then why that?"). About 5 or 10 minutes later, just when I'm starting to get into it and get to the good stuff, he'll go, "OK, you wanna watch a movie?" I wanna say, "No. I just wanna learn about this." He's not really interested for more than a few minutes.

Oh No, the INTP "proof" thing! *screams and runs away*

It really depends on what the subject is. If we're intensely interested in it, some of us are willing to drill down to the nth degree. Sometimes we refuse, since the answer seems obvious, not that it necessarily is but that it seems that way to us. Or if someone challenges us with what we consider to be irrelevant detail (bear in mind that this is from our perspective of relevancy), we can be dismissive. Or we're in an ADHD mood and get distracted. Or we're being intellectually lazy and just want to hang out and relax.

Using Ti for us can be quite draining, no matter how much we attempt to use it.

*waits for Jennifer to accuse me of speaking for all ENTJs*

 

[NegativeZero]

My newspaper advisor (who is also an English and journalism teacher) is a self-confirmed ENTJ. Now, I'm not an INTP, but I used to think I was and my Ti usage score is just a point or two below my Fi score. Needless to say, I bear some similarities to an INTP.

Personally, I find her excruciatingly ruthless when it comes to fairness for all and her work ethic is scary. She doesn't seem to have an excellent grasp of feelings either. I have not had that many substantial conversations with her, if any at all, but I find we get along pretty well. I know ENTJs are considered the INTP's "natural partner," and I think the pairing is cute. However, if you ask me, INTJ + INTP = MUCH cuter.

Something that bugs me about her, I should note, is although she is annoyed to no end by idiocy and ignorance, she seems to put up with plenty of ignorant people just for the sake of conversation. She will talk to the dumbest people just in order to have a conversation; her extroversion is pretty dominant. Also, the whole "hates to be bored" characteristic is also very dominant.

 

[INTPness]

Oh No, the INTP "proof" thing! *screams and runs away*

Haha. This is just our way of learning from you. Picking apart what you say and then having you reconstruct it again (from an angle you may not have considered before)...poetry in motion.

Using Ti for us can be quite draining, no matter how much we attempt to use it.

Don't use Ti. Just keep spouting off with Te, but give me opportunity to ask follow up questions. I'm just sayin', in an ideal world.

 

[Xander]

ENTJs tend to be under-developed because they can get so far with just the blunderbuss approach.

Quick hint, hit them on the nose. They're pit droids... no really....

Seriously though, I've never had a problem with an ENTJ since having dealt with ENFJs since childhood. Just find your cajones, sheath them in steal, prepare your argument and then bludgeon the fun loving turtle heads into last week. Either they'll keep on fighting way after they've lost the argument which means one of two things that either they want to have this opinion regardless of it being wrong or they're just not listening. The former is probably somewhat backed up by their shadow so just gracefully exit letting them have the win. The latter, try to establish if you are considered highly enough to be allowed to alter their thinking or whether they're just dumb schmucks who've gotten this far on being loud and aggressive and have now run out of talent and ideas. Out of those two, the first needs addressing, the latter needs treating to an old ENTJ tactic which goes "I'm sorry but you're going to have to die".

Oh and after current dealings with one's parental ENTJ, never underestimate their ability to be soppy, over considerate balls of goo. Especially when they're scared.

 

[INTPness]

ENTJs tend to be under-developed because they can get so far with just the blunderbuss approach.

Quick hint, hit them on the nose. They're pit droids... no really....

Seriously though, I've never had a problem with an ENTJ since having dealt with ENFJs since childhood. Just find your cajones, sheath them in steal, prepare your argument and then bludgeon the fun loving turtle heads into last week. Either they'll keep on fighting way after they've lost the argument which means one of two things that either they want to have this opinion regardless of it being wrong or they're just not listening. The former is probably somewhat backed up by their shadow so just gracefully exit letting them have the win. The latter, try to establish if you are considered highly enough to be allowed to alter their thinking or whether they're just dumb schmucks who've gotten this far on being loud and aggressive and have now run out of talent and ideas. Out of those two, the first needs addressing, the latter needs treating to an old ENTJ tactic which goes "I'm sorry but you're going to have to die".

Oh and after current dealings with one's parental ENTJ, never underestimate their ability to be soppy, over considerate balls of goo. Especially when they're scared.

Wuh woh. This oughta go over well.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I would sum up the workhorse, iceman side of the ENTJ thusly:

"I don't want to sit around all day trying to explain this (obvious) shit to you people...

If you haven't gotten it by now... that means one of two things.

You weren't listening, or you're too dumb...

Either way this company doesn't have the time or money to cater to your remedial needs.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya."

 

[INTPness]

I would sum up the workhorse, iceman side of the ENTJ thusly:

I totally 100% get that. I'm totally on board with it. But, sometimes we want you to put business aside (like on a Sunday) and just "shoot the breeze". And, INTP's aren't wanting to talk about remedial stuff. The surface stuff is easy to grasp and boring (we're up 14% this quarter and 32% for the Fiscal Year, and here are the PowerPoint charts that show which goals we've met....blah, blah, blah) - we want to know the "good stuff". What's your vision? How would you overcome this "x" obstacle? What is your philosophy on dealing with difficult people? What motivates you and drives you?" We can learn from that. But, a lot of ENTJ's don't want to "go there" - at least not for very long.

Also, I have met some ENTJ venture capitalist/business owner types (so maybe my results are skewed), but when I start conversing with you - just talk to me - it's often times so totally obvious that you can't WAIT to give me your business card and tell me what you can do for me. Kick back with the networking and just talk to me for a minute homeboy. Other than that, you guys rock!

 

[rav3n]

Haha. This is just our way of learning from you. Picking apart what you say and then having you reconstruct it again (from an angle you may not have considered before)...poetry in motion.

Way too much work when we've already arrived at the solution!

Don't use Ti. Just keep spouting off with Te, but give me opportunity to ask follow up questions. I'm just sayin', in an ideal world.

Consider how Te/Ni works. Snapshots in time of the entire picture, from beginning to end but not in linear form. In order for us to explain it, we have to take this abstract picture and put it into linear and concrete form. It's a lot of work and unless there's a reason/task to extrovert this information, we won't bother.

As far as questions are concerned, go ahead and ask them.

 

[INTPness]

Way too much work when we've already arrived at the solution!

Yes, but we want you to share some of that knowledge with us. We're knowledge whores. We're only asking cuz we admire what's in that noggin of yours. Take time out and sharez it wiff us.

 

[Glycerine]

I would sum up the workhorse, iceman side of the ENTJ thusly:

So true. You can totally tell when ENTJ thinks one is a total idiot and usually not in so many words. It feels like they are going to combust on you. lol

I have only interacted w/ 30+ year old ENTjs. lol

 

[rav3n]

Yes, but we want you to share some of that knowledge with us. We're knowledge whores. We're only asking cuz we admire what's in that noggin of yours. Take time out and sharez it wiff us.

In all seriousness, I have a lot of respect and admiration for intelligent INTPs. The manner in which you think and hoover copious amounts of information, creating detailed pictures of conceptual wholes is amazing. That you can communicate and literally disgorge the entire meal, is even better!

For the early alzheimer's afflicted like myself, instead of retaining explicit data, I remember where to get information instead of holding information in a conscious mental repository. Instead, information is shuffled back into the unconscious and only need or triggers bring it forward. Or information is retained externally. So when you question, it can prompt. So keep on questioning.