[NT] reverse class discrimination

[CzeCze]

There is class anger and then there is just simply envy and jealousy and sometimes insecurity. You can feel insecure because someone has all the credentials you're "supposed" to have, or a better this, or a better that, or seems to lead a blessed life. It's not isolated to the disenfranchised or the marginalized, it's a human reaction to seeing someone with something and feeling at your gut it's unfair that you don't have it and/or that you want that too and deserve it just as much.

I would wonder how old you are because I noticed in college a lot of college aged people associate themselves with the underdog, no matter what their actual upbringing or background, and like opportunities to point out how someone else is more privileged than them. Then again, I went to a liberal arts college and being oppressed seemed cool so~ A lot of it in my opinion was just immature individual jealousy (i.e. I wish I had a nicer laptop) coupled with a lack of understanding about actual socio-political place and time and sometimes big words and a rule mis-use of terminology. I remember one girl constantly bitching about how everyone around her was better off than her and was "bougie", even though she grew up in a nice big house in the suburbs, she and all her siblings went to college ("name" colleges even) and her father was an engineering executive and her mother was a nurse who voluntarily didn't work.

I also remember a friend of a friend who identified as working class and my friend took exception to that because the friend of a friend's father was a tenured professor and my friend didn't think that qualified as having an underclass socio-economic background.

I think in these situations a lot is in the mindset.

All of that ^^ is different from actual class tension etc. etc. etc.

Hmmm, I wonder if I just went off topic

 

[onemoretime]

That makes sense. (I just wanted to see how you reacted to your own Edgar medicine.)
I would think that almost everyone would consider themselves to be middle class. Just "normal" especially compared to people around you. Unless you are on one extreme or another of the spectrum.

America... fuck yeah!

 

[Anew Leaf]

Hmmm, I wonder if I just went off topic

If this is bad then I am one INFP post from being banned....

I like edgars kitty.

Also I can see about the middle class fears... I don't want to be rich for the sake of buying lots of stupid stuff, but more for a sense of "ok, maybe I don't have to worry about my business or future anymore." and I fear falling downward for the perceived loss of security I might have.

 

[King sns]

America... fuck yeah!

heheh. So many grey areas.

I grew up on WIC and "green bag" clothes (as my family/ nearby friends used to call them. Clothes from church or in trash bags that people dropped off.) Food stamps and 20 year old cars. The whole kit and caboodle. At one point my mom and I lived in a one bedroom apartment together and she slept on a couch in the room and I slept on a bed. (When I was 14. "I'm like MOOOMMM CAN'T WE MOVVEE??")I thought I was middle class growing up. (Not saying it was bad... I was healthy and well cared for... just sayin'. I'm not sure if anyone else would call that middle class America.) Everything is relative.

 

[onemoretime]

heheh. So many grey areas.

I grew up on WIC and "green bag" clothes (as my family/ nearby friends used to call them. Clothes from church or in trash bags that people dropped off.) Food stamps and 20 year old cars. The whole kit and caboodle. At one point my mom and I lived in a one bedroom apartment together and she slept on a couch in the room and I slept on a bed. (When I was 14. "I'm like MOOOMMM CAN'T WE MOVVEE??")I thought I was middle class growing up. (Not saying it was bad... I was healthy and well cared for... just sayin'. I'm not sure if anyone else would call that middle class America.) Everything is relative.

In America, everyone thinks they're middle class. They're almost all wrong.

 

[King sns]

That makes sense. (I just wanted to see how you reacted to your own Edgar medicine.)
I would think that almost everyone would consider themselves to be middle class. Just "normal" especially compared to people around you. Unless you are on one extreme or another of the spectrum.

In America, everyone thinks they're middle class. They're almost all wrong.

Yes. That's what I'm saying! (Thanks for reminding me of my original point, I almost wasn't sure where I was going. Now I remember.)

 

[King sns]

It's just that I looked up the definition of "rube" and saw that it means "country bumpkin."

That's nice. I just don't feel that he's in a position to judge, though he might be. For all I know he's a direct descendant of Peter the Great, or will lie and say he is just to shut me up.

Awww. That should be your new SN. "Country Bumpkin" or "Rube." Now everyone's got me wondering what my class status is. I guess the fact that I don't think about it too much (outside of this thread) means that I'm (still) in the bottom of the pack somewhere.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Awww. That should be your new SN. "Country Bumpkin" or "Rube." Now everyone's got me wondering what my class status is. I guess the fact that I don't think about it too much (outside of this thread) means that I'm (still) in the bottom of the pack somewhere.

Class E all the way.

 

[Thalassa]

Awww. That should be your new SN. "Country Bumpkin" or "Rube." Now everyone's got me wondering what my class status is. I guess the fact that I don't think about it too much (outside of this thread) means that I'm (still) in the bottom of the pack somewhere.

If your family was on food stamps growing up you were definitely born working class. You may be middle class now for all I know.

As for being a rube, I think perhaps Edgar just likes to fantasize that I'm Clarice Starling and he's Hannibal Lector. It's my accent, I know.

 

[BlueGray]

That makes sense. (I just wanted to see how you reacted to your own Edgar medicine.)
I would think that almost everyone would consider themselves to be middle class. Just "normal" especially compared to people around you. Unless you are on one extreme or another of the spectrum.

I feel normal and would identify myself as middle class. However, when I read descriptions, almost every one would place me as having been raised in the upper class. I don't think I am at the extreme end, although I know some people would disagree.

I have trouble identifying myself as part of a community so that may impact my views on class. I can't really see myself as part of the upper class or middle class even though my attitude is probably typical among upper class people.

 

[King sns]

If your family was on food stamps growing up you were definitely born working class. You may be middle class now for all I know.

As for being a rube, I think perhaps Edgar just likes to fantasize that I'm Clarice Starling and he's Hannibal Lector. It's my accent, I know.

working class is right. I don't know. I consider myself to have moved to the middle class, but now I'm pretty sure that I'm always going to think that, no matter what happens.

 

[King sns]

I feel normal and would identify myself as middle class. However, when I read descriptions, almost every one would place me as having been raised in the upper class. I don't think I am at the extreme end, although I know some people would disagree.

I have trouble identifying myself as part of a community so that may impact my views on class. I can't really see myself as part of the upper class or middle class even though my attitude is probably typical among upper class people.

Oh God. You are probably a little like my ex boyfriend. He'd say things like, "it was really hard for my family growing up. My parents were starting their own businesses, we had to eat American Chop Suey a lot. We had to build the house. And buy the horses."

Whatever bud.

(Sounds like an upper middle class version of poor to me.)
(I'm not really accusing you of saying you were poor, the "upper class attitude" is what made me think of it.

 

[onemoretime]

Awww. That should be your new SN. "Country Bumpkin" or "Rube." Now everyone's got me wondering what my class status is. I guess the fact that I don't think about it too much (outside of this thread) means that I'm (still) in the bottom of the pack somewhere.

Or the opposite.

The truly upper class in this country do not think of themselves as such. In fact, they barely have any conceit of class whatsoever.

It's only the lower upper class in this country that wants to fashion themselves as some sort of aristocracy. The upper class knows better - blessed is the man who cares not for anything but the ones he cares about.

In other words, even though George W. Bush is one of them, they generally feel sorry for him. Why would he need to feel that powerful? Didn't he already have enough? Didn't he think about how much that job would alienate him from his family? There are plenty of other people who would run themselves rotten in that job. Why willingly take it if you have better options?

To the upper class, the status signifier is that you may act as if wealth and power do not matter, because you can be fully confident that people will respect your opinion no matter the circumstance.

 

[rav3n]

Not even sure how this thread evolved into a class discussion and not sure why class even matters.

 

[Scott N Denver]

And what constitutes a lower-class value system, a middle-class value system, and an upper-class value system?

I thought the following was very interesting reading/
http://www.willskinner.com/index.html?http://www.willskinner.com/class.html

 

[CzeCze]

heheh. So many grey areas.

I grew up on WIC and "green bag" clothes (as my family/ nearby friends used to call them. Clothes from church or in trash bags that people dropped off.) Food stamps and 20 year old cars. The whole kit and caboodle. At one point my mom and I lived in a one bedroom apartment together and she slept on a couch in the room and I slept on a bed. (When I was 14. "I'm like MOOOMMM CAN'T WE MOVVEE??")I thought I was middle class growing up. (Not saying it was bad... I was healthy and well cared for... just sayin'. I'm not sure if anyone else would call that middle class America.) Everything is relative.

I bolded the last part. I think it's very true. Kinda in the loop de loops of my not quite answering OP post - what I was trying to say is that class identity or one's individual class is totally in the eye of that beholder, and that one's own sense of self is through lived experience. Regarding your post ShortnSweet, I'm gonna guess that because you did feel comfortable and well looked after (?) growing up that it contributed a lot to feeling middle class. Similar to how actual middle to upper middle class kids start thinking they are poor or lower middle class because they can't get *all* the designer clothes they wanted or all the video games they want.

Now on to my general theories! Unless you are living in a bustling urban area where all kinds of people rub elbows (I'm thinking NYC) you probably grow up in a relative bubble and are surrounded by people who are very similar to yourself.

That's why there are so many middle class to upper middle class kids who have never seen let alone lived in true poverty who think they are "poor" and adopt an "anti-privilege" stance, completely ignorant of how much relative privilege they have. I have noticed this mostly in the US. In other countries, people are more acutely aware of class and disparity and you know quite clearly at least by your teens what your relative socioeconomic class is and those of the people around you.

Also, aside from a few years out of college, I haven't encountered this behavior again. I think partly it's because as you get older and build more of a life for yourself you really do create your own bubble to live in.

Yes 'rich' is relative. I remember a couple, both with master's degrees and a successful business who lived in a beautiful home I estimated at at least $500,000, more like $600,000+ and 2 cars - were talking about how certain laws only favored "those rich people" something something. They did not include themselves with "rich", though I think a lot observers would at least consider them comfortable and even affluent. I think they would consider themselves to be middle class if pushed. I think that might even be the textbook definition of "middle class". Others would say "rich", as in "in America, everyone is rich".

Most people, or just young people, in the US are totally unaware of their own class, with the exception of the very poor or the very wealthy. I forgot to add that because class as a lived experience is a lot more than how much income is earned, it's about your surroundings, how you live, how comfortable you are, and who you think you are. I've lived on less than $12,000 a year before, working 2 jobs or random jobs, but I never felt "poor" and I knew that my income was not an indicator of my class, it was more an indicator of a phase in life (right out of college living on my own) and my class was defined by my overall lifelong socio-economic background.

Rambling again now!!! LOL.

 

[King sns]

Or the opposite.

The truly upper class in this country do not think of themselves as such. In fact, they barely have any conceit of class whatsoever.

It's only the lower upper class in this country that wants to fashion themselves as some sort of aristocracy. The upper class knows better - blessed is the man who cares not for anything but the ones he cares about.

In other words, even though George W. Bush is one of them, they generally feel sorry for him. Why would he need to feel that powerful? Didn't he already have enough? Didn't he think about how much that job would alienate him from his family? There are plenty of other people who would run themselves rotten in that job. Why willingly take it if you have better options?

To the upper class, the status signifier is that you may act as if wealth and power do not matter, because you can be fully confident that people will respect your opinion no matter the circumstance.

Possibly. I think what happened to me was such a long period of discomfort that taught me how to pinch pennies and survive with less and make me highly aware of my financial situation constantly then turned into suddenly being able to work a lot less and make a lot more and still be able to save. (And think about the smartest ways to handle my finances. Before, the obvious smart thing to do was to buy food.) The sudden comfort kind of made me forget about it. (Part of the comfort comes from being able to live with less, though. A little money feels like a lot to me.) So, then the topic just kind of faded into the background. As long as I am happy with my financial status, class doesn’t matter, and in turn, I don’t really pay any attention to it anymore.

 

[CzeCze]

Mod Note - Picture spam and related posts moved to Graveyard. Sorry, if you want to add to your post total, you have to do it constructively

*edit* Which will be hard to do now that you're banned.

Kids - don't do this at home!

 

[Scott N Denver]

I thought the following was an interesting collection as well, until it eventually blocked me for not being a subscriber.
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/class/index.html

Personally, I generally follow the socioeconomic status (class) description listed on the following wikipedia link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States
which, if I recall correctly, is very similar to the will skinner description I linked to 1 page back
http://www.willskinner.com/ He talks about LOTS of stuff in there. Very interesting reading.

PBS did a very interesting like 2 hr tv special on class in america "people like us" or whatever it was called. Appalachia gets featured, and in there segment notions such as "getting above your raisin'" [however that is spelled] gets talked about.
http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/
http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/resources/essays6.html

 

[Edgar]

Mod Note - Picture spam and related posts moved to Graveyard. Sorry, if you want to add to your post total, you have to do it constructively

*edit* Which will be hard to do now that you're banned.

Kids - don't do this at home!

Where else are we supposed to do it? In a public library? Homeless people take showers there. It's fucking disgusting.

(behold my middle class disgust and rage)