[NT] reverse class discrimination

[entropie]

Ironically, or perhaps intentionally, you've quoted for us the voice of Prejudice.

I understood it more in the way that the people who have the most tend to be unhappy with it the most. That's in opposition to people who virtually have nothing, like for example not even good health

 

[Giggly]

That's just sour grapes.

 

[onemoretime]

I think it's really incumbent on those who see inherent injustice in this brand of capitalism to start industrial or commercial ventures of their own, ventures that are explicitly not-for-profit and which exist solely for the purpose of returning fair value for labor. Failing that, the laborers themselves should organize into employee-owned companies and so provide labor market competition for the old-school capitalists. Doing so would help direct employees considerably, and would exert upward pressure on wages across the market.

I agree completely. First step is to get the government to dismantle many of the barriers to entry that have been thrown up by established businesses to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening.

I've already provided an alternative definition; income. Its the only criteria that is objective (outside of a caste system) and its not so amorphous as to be practically worthless. There are some cultural traits more common in certain classes than others, but that affects the likelihood of upward and downward mobility, not the class someone is in.

As for 'learning something', I already read everything you had posted in sociology textbooks, you haven't provided any new information or ideas to digest.

Still with the dismissiveness.

We've already pointed out the reasons that income doesn't work as the sole determinant. We provided some means of economic determination. We then provided some means of cultural determination. I, for one, have learned a lot from others' perspectives in this thread.

 

[Oberon]

I agree completely. First step is to get the government to dismantle many of the barriers to entry that have been thrown up by established businesses to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening.

Barriers to entry? What would keep you from starting a local business under these terms? Because, of course, it'll have to start small. It could be as small as a convenience store, or a real estate brokerage, or a barber shop. One would have to do it as a sole proprietorship at first, of course, because operating on a not-for-profit basis is incompatible with venture capital, and even more so with offerings of public stock.

But there's no barrier to starting with a business license and a sole proprietorship.

 

[Lark]

I am King of you.

 

[Thalassa]

Quick sketch:

1. Working class - hard work, "playing through the pain", unwillingness to take charity, "hustling" or having side ventures to make extra money, little use for non-practical education, respect for accepted authorities, traditionally solidarity, importance of religion, high standards of personal conduct, expectation of and forgiveness for failures, intolerance of perceived laziness, disdain for haughty or arrogant attitudes, focus on local affairs, low priority of global affairs

2. Middle class - perceived ideal of work/leisure balance, pain is an annoyance to be medicated away, cutthroat competition with an expectation of taking care of vanquished opponents in some way, entrepreneurship, education the most important thing, authorities seen as a means to an end, individualism, diminished importance of religion, some measure of hedonism tolerated, as long as it doesn't get in the way of work, failure means diminished self-worth, intolerance of perceived inefficiency, disdain for ignorant or dismissive attitudes, focus on regional to global affairs

3. Upper/capitalist class - focus on the "right kind" of work, pain is a reminder that you too are human, charity is expected of you, patronage of talent seen as a virtue, education of "the whole man" both intellectual and physical, taking one's place as an authority in society, individual is representative of a family, religion important as a preserve of family tradition, high standards of personal conduct, pleasure to be taken from traditional pastimes, ostracism arising from failure and unwillingness to correct oneself, intolerance for lack of refinement, disdain for flattering or selfish attitudes, local affairs are global affairs

Little use for non-practical education? Respect for accepted authorities? Low priority on global affairs?

Tell me, are these working class people, or just some of those "salt of the earth" Republicans I described earlier, because this has nothing to do with my own experience of life.

 

[King sns]

This thread is so doublethinkish for me. (Thank you for the new word I can overuse type C!)

The way I learned it in highschool, classes had some to do with money, some to do with jobs, some to do with houses, some to do with other factors. Edgar actually used a good example. (The professor with the sour milk vs. Brittany Spears, I've always thought of her as a low class gal myself. ) I'm still inclined that money has the most influence on class, though, since like someone said, money has to do with power and influence. And because it's easier to measure. And because though someone with higher class can make less money than someone with lower class, I'm inclined to think that income trends increase with class. I can see where there can be a lot of different views on this.

 

[Thalassa]

We've already pointed out the reasons that income doesn't work as the sole determinant. We provided some means of economic determination. We then provided some means of cultural determination. I, for one, have learned a lot from others' perspectives in this thread.

Yes, but your "cultural determination" actually points to the existence of there possibly being "a fourth class." Just like Edgar's comments about white trash.

Those people aren't just "working class."

 

[Thalassa]

This thread is so doublethinkish for me. (Thank you for the new word I can overuse type C!)

The way I learned it in highschool, classes had some to do with money, some to do with jobs, some to do with houses, some to do with other factors. Edgar actually used a good example. (The professor with the sour milk vs. Brittany Spears, I've always thought of her as a low class gal myself. ) I'm still inclined that money has the most influence on class, though, since like someone said, money has to do with power and influence. And because it's easier to measure. And because though someone with higher class can make less money than someone with lower class, I'm inclined to think that income tends to go up with class. I can see where there can be a lot of different views on this.

I know a woman from a middle class background, who worked as a stripper, and now is a doctor. What class is she?

 

[Oberon]

This thread is so doublethinkish for me. (Thank you for the new word I can overuse type C!)

The way I learned it in highschool, classes had some to do with money, some to do with jobs, some to do with houses, some to do with other factors. Edgar actually used a good example. (The professor with the sour milk vs. Brittany Spears, I've always thought of her as a low class gal myself. ) I'm still inclined that money has the most influence on class, though, since like someone said, money has to do with power and influence. And because it's easier to measure. And because though someone with higher class can make less money than someone with lower class, I'm inclined to think that income trends increase with class. I can see where there can be a lot of different views on this.

I was once informed by a (VERY) left-wing professor, then Virginia Tech Playwright-in-Residence Jerry McGlown, that class was not determined by income, but rather by education. His example was Elvis Presley: "Take a Georgia redneck and give him millions of dollars, and he finishes his basement in black and yellow naughahyde" (- J. McGlown, 1987).

The piece that Jerry was missing, I think, was that you can send that same Georgia redneck to college and, once he's got out and got him a job, he might still finish his basement in black and yellow naughahyde. Though it's vital, I don't think education is always the transformative experience that Jerry thought it was.

 

[chachamaru]

I know a woman from a middle class background, who worked as a stripper, and now is a doctor. What class is she?

Upper Middle.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Still with the dismissiveness.

We've already pointed out the reasons that income doesn't work as the sole determinant. We provided some means of economic determination. We then provided some means of cultural determination. I, for one, have learned a lot from others' perspectives in this thread.

And I disagree as a matter of practicality on whether cultural traits are a useful determinant. Its one thing to study the norms, values, and mores which characterize large portions of the various economic classes, and speculate as to their sociological ramifications, but objective criteria is needed to even determine who qualifies as a member of the group being studied. A wal-mart cashier with a doctorate in philosophy is not middle-class (though there's a good chance they came from a middle-class family), they are simply an atypical member of the lower-class.

 

[Thalassa]

Upper Middle.

Well, yes...now that she's a doctor.

 

[lowtech redneck]

I know a woman from a middle class background, who worked as a stripper, and now is a doctor. What class is she?

How much money is she making? Accumulated wealth is also useful information.

Edit: Those were mostly rhetorical questions; depending on age and success, she is almost certainly either upper-middle or upper-class.

 

[Giggly]

With socioeconomic class there are two separate parts .....the social part and the economic part.

Rich people who behave badly do not stay rich for long. Long meaning for more than 1 Or 2 generation.

 

[Thalassa]

I was once informed by a (VERY) left-wing professor, then Virginia Tech Playwright-in-Residence Jerry McGlown, that class was not determined by income, but rather by education. His example was Elvis Presley: "Take a Georgia redneck and give him millions of dollars, and he finishes his basement in black and yellow naughahyde" (- J. McGlown, 1987).

The piece that Jerry was missing, I think, was that you can send that same Georgia redneck to college and, once he's got out and got him a job, he might still finish his basement in black and yellow naughahyde. Though it's vital, I don't think education is always the transformative experience that Jerry thought it was.

What about working class children who were strongly educated from childhood? With a lot of exposure to history and literature, with ballet and music training? Do they become middle class no matter what their parents jobs are (and no matter what their personal struggles with income as a young adult) by virtue of having always been educated?

Does this mean by simply being by being born intelligent and intellectual, with normal exposure to libraries and schooling, you become middle class?

That's the problem I have the cultural determination theory. Well, that, and there are people from middle class backgrounds who don't give a shit about global affairs, emphasize local affairs, and have an intolerance for perceived laziness. I like to call them "SJs." (J/K)

 

[entropie]

What about working class children who were strongly educated from childhood? With a lot of exposure to history and literature, with ballet and music training? Do they become middle class no matter what their parents jobs are (and no matter what their personal struggles with income as a young adult) by virtue of having always been educated?

Does this mean by simply being by being born intelligent and intellectual, with normal exposure to libraries and schooling, you become middle class?

That's the problem I have the cultural determination theory. Well, that, and there are people from middle class backgrounds who don't give a shit about global affairs, emphasize local affairs, and have an intolerance for perceived laziness. I like to call them "SJs." (J/K)

Very good one

 

[MacGuffin]

The problem with this thread is one is taking an outdated concept like "class" and trying to apply it to a society (the United States) for whom it's intended meaning (usually pre-war England) never fit all too well, and certainly doesn't fit today.

"Class" used to mean more than just an amount of money. Wealth was inherited for the large part, and the culture and attitudes that went with this wealth were fairly well-defined. Now wealth is often merely just wealth, and "class" is just marker for a certain tax bracket.

 

[Thalassa]

The problem with this thread is one is taking an outdated concept like "class" and trying to apply it to a society (the United States) for whom it's intended meaning (usually pre-war England) never fit all too well, and certainly doesn't fit today.

"Class" used to mean more than just an amount of money. Wealth was inherited for the large part, and the culture and attitudes that went with this wealth were fairly well-defined. Now wealth is often merely just wealth, and "class" is just marker for a certain tax bracket.

Ha! That's exactly what I said, several months ago. Class does not work in the United States because everything is so blurry here.

 

[onemoretime]

Barriers to entry? What would keep you from starting a local business under these terms? Because, of course, it'll have to start small. It could be as small as a convenience store, or a real estate brokerage, or a barber shop. One would have to do it as a sole proprietorship at first, of course, because operating on a not-for-profit basis is incompatible with venture capital, and even more so with offerings of public stock.

But there's no barrier to starting with a business license and a sole proprietorship.

Licenses, certifications, registration requirements, environmental standards, insurance requirements, etc...

All of those help impose significant barriers to entry for even a small business. Almost all of those came about as the result of industry lobbying, specifically to keep potential competitors out.

Neither the Right nor the Left have it totally right - business isn't the problem, and government isn't the problem. The problem is the nexus between business and government.

Little use for non-practical education? Respect for accepted authorities? Low priority on global affairs?

Tell me, are these working class people, or just some of those "salt of the earth" Republicans I described earlier, because this has nothing to do with my own experience of life.

There's a big difference between "education" and "learning." Working class people love to learn. They also hate indoctrination from sources that seem out of touch with their own experiences.

Yes, but your "cultural determination" actually points to the existence of there possibly being "a fourth class." Just like Edgar's comments about white trash.

Those people aren't just "working class."

Yeah, the lumpenproletariat. The ones who feel perpetually disenfranchised from society as a whole.