[NT] reverse class discrimination

[Edgar]

And what, besides money, denotes class? If a person can afford a middle-class lifestyle they are middle-class in my book. Do you think someone has to have a white-collar job to be middle-class, even when they earn less than someone in construction? Do you think someone with a blue-collar job automatically works harder than someone working the same hours in a white-collar job?

Roughly put, class is determined by one's value system (and the resulting behavior). The amount of money a person has at any given point does not have effect on a person's class - otherwise, there would be no such thing as "gaudy rich", it would be just "rich".

For example, Hulk Hogan and Britney Spears are low class white trash, even though they have millions of dollars. And your friendly neighborhood community college professor is middle class, even though he lives in a shoe box sized apartment and saves money by making cookies out of spoiled milk.

For a more detailed study of class in America, read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253

 

[Thalassa]

You didn't just say anything profound and this is not the argument you were making before.

Either that, or you fail to explain yourself well. I believe its the latter.

 

[skylights]

For example, Hulk Hogan and Britney Spears are low class white trash, even though they have millions of dollars. And your friendly neighborhood community college professor is middle class, even though he lives in a shoe box sized apartment and saves money by making cookies out of spoiled milk.

funny and true

interesting book, i'm going to get a hold of that

 

[Thalassa]

funny and true

interesting book, i'm going to get a hold of that

I don't need a book to tell me that some people act "nigger rich" or "nouveau riche" ...and certainly anyone who equates money with class isn't "low class white trash" like Britney Spears and Hulk Hogan.

That's what I found misleading in his previous argument. People who are educated do not behave that way, even if they came from a working class background.

 

[Thalassa]

In fact, they don't even have to be educated. Anyone with dignity, intelligence, and self-respect wouldn't act that way even if they come from a dreadfully poor family.

 

[skylights]

I don't need a book to tell me that some people act "nigger rich" or "nouveau riche" ...and certainly anyone who equates money with class isn't "low class white trash" like Britney Spears and Hulk Hogan.

That's what I found misleading in his previous argument. People who are educated do not behave that way, even if they came from a working class background.

lol. i don't think i even read his post you're referring to.

i do think that culture can have some really bizarre effects on people, you know? like upper class people might have learned how to hide their crazy shit better, but does it mean they have less of it? i am not sure

 

[Thalassa]

Oh, he said he could tell I was working class because I equated money with class, in the roughest sense.

It simply cannot be true, though, because there are people who work at grocery stores who have more self-respect and decorum than Britney Spears. Are we going to claim they're middle class now? Especially if they read Crime and Punishment on their lunch break?

 

[FDG]

I know what the OP means, but I see it more as an attitude centered towards a strong dislike towards learning anything new, rather than living a simple rural life. There's plenty of informed, intelligent writers that live in mountain towns in my region (I suppose isolation might be part of why they managed to become such successful writers), yet it talking with them doesn't feel any different. On the other hand, I know a good number of crass, vulgar (yes, more vulgar than me, lol) redneck-y people that live in the countryside and will think you're crazy if you happen to use a word which they deem as "sophisticated" - that's mostly a byproduct of strong close-mindedness, and while I do agree that these views might be more likely to cluster in specific countryside communities, I believe the reason to be simple - anyone who has different preferences will quickly leave when he-she reaches adulthood.

 

[Elfboy]

I know what the OP means, but I see it more as an attitude centered towards a strong dislike towards learning anything new, rather than living a simple rural life. There's plenty of informed, intelligent writers that live in mountain towns in my region (I suppose isolation might be part of why they managed to become such successful writers), yet it talking with them doesn't feel any different. On the other hand, I know a good number of crass, vulgar (yes, more vulgar than me, lol) redneck-y people that live in the countryside and will think you're crazy if you happen to use a word which they deem as "sophisticated" - that's mostly a byproduct of strong close-mindedness, and while I do agree that these views might be more likely to cluster in specific countryside communities, I believe the reason to be simple - anyone who has different preferences will quickly leave when he-she reaches adulthood.

try living in kansas. ugh, people here make me want to :banned: myself.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Roughly put, class is determined by one's value system (and the resulting behavior). The amount of money a person has at any given point does not have effect on a person's class - otherwise, there would be no such thing as "gaudy rich", it would be just "rich".

For example, Hulk Hogan and Britney Spears are low class white trash, even though they have millions of dollars. And your friendly neighborhood community college professor is middle class, even though he lives in a shoe box sized apartment and saves money by making cookies out of spoiled milk.

For a more detailed study of class in America, read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253

And what constitutes a lower-class value system, a middle-class value system, and an upper-class value system?

 

[Thalassa]

Well, I assuredly must be middle class since we're the "liberal elite."

That's why I don't buy into this theory. There would have to be more than three classes of people. There are very poor or working class people who value education. And you cannot call them middle class if they happen to be intellectual if they're so poor they have to work at minimum wage jobs.

I want an explanation. I've been wanting an explanation for months.

 

[Elfboy]

Well, I assuredly must be middle class since we're the "liberal elite."

That's why I don't buy into this theory. There would have to be more than three classes of people. There are very poor or working class people who value education. And you cannot call them middle class if they happen to be intellectual if they're so poor they have to work at minimum wage jobs.

I want an explanation. I've been wanting an explanation for months.

I think class has a lot to do with self perception. the most important determinant of class to me is how high of a standard one holds one's self to. a manager making $25,000 a year who doesn't use profanity, has exceptional manners, is a good conversationalist, has good communication skills, has good hygiene, is a responsible provider and role model, is seeking a higher paying job and is doing something outside of work to further his education is pretty freakin high class in my book

 

[Thalassa]

I think class has a lot to do with self perception. the most important determinant of class to me is how high of a standard one holds one's self to. a manager making $25,000 a year who doesn't use profanity, has exceptional manners, is a good conversationalist, has good communication skills, has good hygiene, is a responsible provider and role model, is seeking a higher paying job and is doing something outside of work to further his education is pretty freakin high class in my book

Many working class people are just like that.

That's why I think saying that people who are "white trash" are always going to be lower class no matter how much money they have is making "white trash" be about level of intelligence, interests, lack of intellectualism, and/or flashy behavior.

I'd honestly also type Britney Spears as ESFP (and mentally ill) and Hulk Hogan as probably ESTP.

So are we now equating being an Se dom with also being white trash?

It boggles the mind.

 

[Elfboy]

Many working class people are just like that.

That's why I think saying that people who are "white trash" are always going to be lower class no matter how much money they have is making "white trash" be about level of intelligence, interests, lack of intellectualism, and/or flashy behavior.

I'd honestly also type Britney Spears as ESFP (and mentally ill) and Hulk Hogan as probably ESTP.

So are we now equating being an Se dom with also being white trash?

It boggles the mind.

I agree, class has mostly to do with mindset, clothes are only an indicator (but often a very good one). classy people value elegance, beauty and intelligence and thus will be more comfortable in clothes that look "classy". it's not so much that wearing nice clothes makes one classy as much as being classy propells one to wear clothes that they consider classy.

 

[Thalassa]

I agree, class has mostly to do with mindset, clothes are only an indicator (but often a very good one). classy people value elegance, beauty and intelligence and thus will be more comfortable in clothes that look "classy". it's not so much that wearing nice clothes makes one classy as much as being classy propells one to wear clothes that they consider classy.

Yes, class has to do with mindset. However, simply because a person acknowledges that economics are the driving motivator of the current class structure does not mean they are working class. I know academics who went to top-notch grad schools who were raised in upper-middle class homes who had freaking trust frunds who think that class is economically driven.

Of course, someone with a very poor background will have a hard time handling being wealthy if they are not educated. I completely acquiesce to that fact. On the other hand a person could have been working class all of their lives but be very smart or well-read.

It's just not as simple as "money" "education" and "high society" determine class. That's an overly simplistic view and undermines the reality of people's lives.

That's one of the reasons I say "I don't do class." Class appears to be such a complex, intermingled thing in a democratic society where people have opportunities for education and potentially had parents who married from two different class backgrounds.

 

[Elfboy]

Yes, class has to do with mindset. However, simply because a person acknowledges that economics are the driving motivator of the current class structure does not mean they are working class. I know academics who went to top-notch grad schools who were raised in upper-middle class homes who had freaking trust frunds who think that class is economically driven.

Of course, someone with a very poor background will have a hard time handling being wealthy if they are not educated. I completely acquiesce to that fact. On the other hand a person could have been working class all of their lives but be very smart or well-read.

It's just not as simple as "money" "education" and "high society" determine class. That's an overly simplistic view and undermines the reality of people's lives.

That's one of the reasons I say "I don't do class." Class appears to be such a complex, intermingled thing in a democratic society where people have opportunities for education and potentially had parents who married from two different class backgrounds.

I just do what I think is classy and say "screw everyone else's opinion" (but I realize this is less than optimum for the more agreeable individual who actually gives a damn about the opinions of others)

 

[InvisibleJim]

With regards to the OP, it's called Anti-snobbery. These individuals have the opinion that anything which is 'high class' such as cars, houses, artwork, aesthetics or generally anything they dislike is down to wealth and that people should be brought down as low as they are. It is entirely based on individuals with a very limited worldview who 'want more' but don't want to do more and thus resent those who do. See the spam valley rhetoric and it is often mixed in for good measure with luddite delusions and entitlement issues.

 

[Elfboy]

With regards to the OP, it's called Anti-snobbery. These individuals have the opinion that anything which is 'high class' such as cars, houses, artwork, aesthetics or generally anything they dislike is down to wealth and that people should be brought down as low as they are. It is entirely based on individuals with a very limited worldview who 'want more' but don't want to do more and thus resent those who do. See the spam valley rhetoric and it is often mixed in for good measure with luddite delusions and entitlement issues.

I think you've just summed up the whole thread in a few sentences

 

[Orangey]

My father is the type of person described in the OP.

We don't get along.

 

[Thalassa]

I just do what I think is classy and say "screw everyone else's opinion" (but I realize this is less than optimum for the more agreeable individual who actually gives a damn about the opinions of others)

I'm sorry, I just extremely annoyed when certain people are being pseudo-intellectual. Especially when they're being pseudo-intellectual passive-aggressively at my expense.

Of course, certain people are always pseudo-intellectual and have attempted to reduce human relationships to mere caricatures of what they really are because any kind of real emotional introspection frightens them.

But I think you're right, Elfboy, and I think the more complex "class system" you named earlier in the thread was more descriptive than what we've currently been discussing.

Unless new information comes to light. Still waiting.