[NT] reverse class discrimination

[King sns]

Working class - you rent your labor to the owner of a means of production to secure the necessities of survival, plus whatever bonuses you can scrounge up. Both blue collar and white collar entry-level and middle-management types fall within this class (the ugly truth that we don't like to face)

Middle class - you own the means of your own production, but have to sell what you produce to secure the necessities of survival, either to a company or to customers/clients. Small/medium business owners, professionals like doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. fall within this class

Upper/capitalist class - you own a means of production, and profit off the labor of others by charging rent for the use of your means of production. As long as your means of production continues to run, you have to do nothing to secure the necessities of survival.

If you can stop working tomorrow, and never have to work again, you're in the upper/capitalist class. If you can stop working tomorrow, and take an extended break, and come back to work with little impact on your job status, you're middle class. If you can't stop working tomorrow, lest you starve in a few days/weeks or take a huge pay cut, you're working class.

Hmm... All classes make sense. (I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with them though.) The last paragraph still seems to support the class= money theory.

 

[Thalassa]

Hmm... All classes make sense. The last paragraph still seems to support the class= money theory.

Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.

 

[King sns]

Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.

Well I think class is mostly money too. (Along with some amount of prestige.. like, maybe the stripper makes more money than the teacher, but many would argue that the teacher is in a higher class.) In the same breath, I couldn't tell if onemoretime agreed or disagreed based on the post.

 

[Elfboy]

Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.

in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation)
2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
4) options. being in control of when you work, where you work, and what you do and how you act

Edit: I suppose item 2 has a very slight correlation with type. NFPs for instance are pretty likely to be high class in this regard

 

[King sns]

in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation. for instance, an investor who works 4 hours a week whenever and where ever he wants and makes $500,000 a year will probably have a higher standard of living wehn compared to a CEO who works 70 hours a week but makes $700,000 a year)
2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others

Huh, I never thought of class in this way before. -

 

[skylights]

to the OP...

i think that perhaps in addition to a projection of frustration towards others because the blue-collar advocate did not push himself harder, i imagine that it's a frustration towards a society which does celebrate and reward people who climb the corporate ladder, as opposed to those who work hard and ethically. and of course you can do both, but (at least my) culture reveres those at the top of the food chain regardless of the nasty means they may have used to get themselves there. so i could easily see someone being pissed at those people who have risen through uncouth means, generalizes that, and therefore distrusts the whole group.

but yes, he also may well be masking his own disappointment - classical freudian reaction formation.

"[t]he instincts and their derivatives may be arranged as pairs of opposites: life versus death, construction versus destruction, action versus passivity, dominance versus submission, and so forth. When one of the instincts produces anxiety by exerting pressure on the ego either directly or by way of the superego, the ego may try to sidetrack the offending impulse by concentrating upon its opposite. For example, if feelings of hate towards another person make one anxious, the ego can facilitate the flow of love to conceal the hostility."

----

this thread is making me dizzy..

+1

At that moment something clicked in my brain... I had always thought that not only should Nicole go "do something" with her life. (My definition of "do something",) but also felt that she was judging me for actually going ahead and "doing something." She may have been judging me, but now I think, maybe not... Maybe I'm just projecting my own stuff on to her. Saying, "Nicole thinks my lifestyle is bad." When the reverse is really true. I can only speculate. (I still kind of think she judges people of higher economic status a little bit...A few other's have agreed.. But, hey! She never did say that out loud!! You can't assume anything.)

yeah... i have a friend who graduated, got pregnant, kept it, got married, and now works at a diner and is working on making a family. i know that's not a path i want to take, but at the same time, i haven't decided my own path yet. i used to feel superior - not morally, but in terms of class/money/status/whatever. more recently i have looked at her life and realized how supportive her family is, how much she loves her child, how her baby-daddy has chosen to marry her because he actually does love her, and they might not be rich, but they're living a life of love. the practical and classist side of me shivers and says they're just screwing with their ability to be financially secure and happy later on. some other side of me says they're living a really beautiful life. i figure both are true.

But those born with wealth also frequently feel "entitled."

yes. though i think it's often not as "evil" as it's portrayed. if you're born into relative wealth, you're probably pretty used to a certain degree of positive feedback. so why all of a sudden should you be deprived of it? like, if you've worked decently in school, done lots of extracurriculars, gotten into a good college, graduated well, and suddenly you're smack-bottom of the food chain... it's like all of a sudden you're putting the same amount of effort in that you always have, but with so much less return. hence entitlement - it feels unfair for that to happen. like a rug being pulled out from under your feet.

and just because i'm surprised no one has posted it yet,

 

[Thalassa]

in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation)
2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
4) options. being in control of when you work, where you work, and what you do and how you act

Edit: I suppose item 2 has a very slight correlation with type. NFPs for instance are pretty likely to be high class in this regard

A person can be extremely sophisticated in their tastes and culture and be technically working or middle class, meanwhile the asshat heiress Paris Hilton is shaming her entire family and asking if Wal-Mart sells walls.

A person who is working class can also have a great deal of integrity, self-respect, and respect for others.

None of these things have to do with class. Numbers 2 and 3 may have been more relevant in the 19th century because the upper class tended to be more educated than the lower classes, and had a stricter belief in behaving themselves than they do now days.

In fact, number 3 was more in vogue for every class in the 19th century in the Western world...so still, not really about class.

 

[SRT]

Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.

I'm not gonna disagree with this, but I think:

money = power
power = class

They're connected, but only in relation to power. /nitpicking

 

[Elfboy]

A person can be extremely sophisticated in their tastes and culture and be technically working or middle class, meanwhile the asshat heiress Paris Hilton is shaming her entire family and asking if Wal-Mart sells walls.

A person who is working class can also have a great deal of integrity, self-respect, and respect for others.

None of these things have to do with class. Numbers 2 and 3 may have been more relevant in the 19th century because the upper class tended to be more educated than the lower classes, and had a stricter belief in behaving themselves.

exactly, that's why I put them as seperate types of class. they are by no means more than loosely correlated. a working class man who makes $20,000 a year can be very classy in terms of types 2 and 3

 

[King sns]

in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation)
2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
4) options. being in control of when you work, where you work, and what you do and how you act

Edit: I suppose item 2 has a very slight correlation with type. NFPs for instance are pretty likely to be high class in this regard

Seriously, man? We're already knee deep in off topicness. I don't think we want to go down this road right now.

 

[Elfboy]

Seriously, man? We're already knee deep in off topicness. I don't think we want to go down this road right now.

I was bringing up a sidenote, not suggesting a topic change. perhaps in the future I should put side note next to such comments

 

[skylights]

I'm not gonna disagree with this, but I think:

money = power
power = class

They're connected, but only in relation to power. /nitpicking

i am not trying to paint myself as very knowledgeable about class, because really i am not, but i think it has a lot to do with your perception in the eyes of others. SRT's connection gets at this.

money is important to class because money generally translates into influence. however, you can have a lot of money, but if you are not accepted by those of the existing upper classes, then you yourself are not really upper class. witness, for example, the american southern division between "old money" and "new money". old money is still of higher class than new money. why it is more respectable to have your great-great-grandfather being the one who made your family's money, as opposed to your daddy, i do not know - but i think the point is the old rich being miffed that the new rich were threatening their status, and so had to find some non-monetary means of delineation to maintain their higher position.

[edited]

i am from a southern area where certain non-monetary elements of class remain curiously important. i think a lot of my life - much more than i realized until this point, actually - has been colored by classist demarcations. southern society is quite a picky, strange thing. there's old money and new money, and there are elements off elfboy's list that apply here. to be upper class, you need to be image-attentive and you need to have certain social skills and knowledge. it's really a very cultural thing, more than purely financial. some people in the south, i am sure - and not just upper class people - would argue that "transplants" can never be included in the southern upper class because they are not from here. but i think it's just testimony to what a really complex thing that extends beyond simply money or power class is - at least here. you could move here with an assload of money, but if you didn't have the correct schooling and knowledge, you'd just be a rich outcast.

i wonder how much class really impacts quality of life, though. the upper class families that i know seem pretty damn happy for the most part, but that's one of those southern social things you learn - regardless of how much misery you're in, you don't talk about it unless it's "acceptable" misery. certain surgeries are in; financial woes are out (plenty of upper class people are breaking the bank with all the shit they buy beyond their means).

 

[mmhmm]

i just say let them eat cake.

 

[Thalassa]

i am not trying to paint myself as very knowledgeable about class, because really i am not, but i think it has a lot to do with your perception in the eyes of others. SRT's connection gets at that. money is important to class because money often translates into influence. however, you can have a lot of money, but if you are not accepted by those of the existing upper classes, then you yourself are not really upper class. witness, for example, the american division between "old money" and "new money". old money is still of higher class than new money. why it is more respectable to have your great-great-grandfather being the one who made your family's money, as opposed to your daddy, i do not know - but i think the point is the old rich being miffed that the new rich were threatening their status, and so had to find some non-monetary means of delineation to maintain their higher position.

I read a great deal of 19th and early 20th century British literature, so I can be of help with that. "Old money" knew how to behave (or at least they did, once upon a time, before Paris Hilton was born)...they were educated and well-bred. They had fine manners and taste. They were discreet and gracious. They lived well. They did NOT speak of money in public, nor did they flaunt their wealth. They knew how to save, invest, et al.

"New money" was associated with braggarts, ignorance, flashy behavior, lack of manners, you name it.

And this correlation does make sense in that regard, examined from the perspective of the past.

 

[mmhmm]

"New money"

nouveau riche, what would the social pages do without them <3

 

[onemoretime]

Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.

I'd say that it's not necessarily about money, and more about access to resources, or the impact that scarcity of resources has on one's life. In the upper/capitalist class, scarcity of resources has no impact on one's life whatsoever. In the middle class, scarcity of resources is the means by which you make your living. In the working class, scarcity of resources is why you cannot escape your station in life.

 

[onemoretime]

i am not trying to paint myself as very knowledgeable about class, because really i am not, but i think it has a lot to do with your perception in the eyes of others. SRT's connection gets at that. money is important to class because money often translates into influence. however, you can have a lot of money, but if you are not accepted by those of the existing upper classes, then you yourself are not really upper class. witness, for example, the american division between "old money" and "new money". old money is still of higher class than new money. why it is more respectable to have your great-great-grandfather being the one who made your family's money, as opposed to your daddy, i do not know - but i think the point is the old rich being miffed that the new rich were threatening their status, and so had to find some non-monetary means of delineation to maintain their higher position.

Somewhat. Old money is far more collectivistic and family-oriented than new money. Old money families have no sense of personal wealth - the idea is that the wealth is the family's wealth, which has been entrusted to the adult members to perpetuate and grow for the next generation. Thus, there's no inclination to make big and flashy purchases - that would be a frivolous waste of the family's money. However, things that have a sense of permanence and historical connection absolutely are worth spending the family's money, because those things will provide an enduring legacy to the children and grandchildren. The greatest source of wealth in the eyes of this class of people, though, is the time spent with the whole, big family, because one's sense of identity is incomplete outside of these gatherings. Of course, that means there's simply a lot of these gatherings.

 

[Anew Leaf]

i just say let them eat cake.

Lmao. This is such lovely win.

 

[Thalassa]

Somewhat. Old money is far more collectivistic and family-oriented than new money. Old money families have no sense of personal wealth - the idea is that the wealth is the family's wealth, which has been entrusted to the adult members to perpetuate and grow for the next generation. Thus, there's no inclination to make big and flashy purchases - that would be a frivolous waste of the family's money. However, things that have a sense of permanence and historical connection absolutely are worth spending the family's money, because those things will provide an enduring legacy to the children and grandchildren. The greatest source of wealth in the eyes of this class of people, though, is the time spent with the whole, big family, because one's sense of identity is incomplete outside of these gatherings. Of course, that means there's simply a lot of these gatherings.

I agree. I think this is why I tend to respect (somewhat) the idea of old money; also the fact that they knew they had a duty to the poor, they took care of their servants, tenant farmers, etc.

I'm not saying people with old money were entirely better, because it was still a repressive class system, but somehow I find modern capitalism to be much more distasteful and evil.

This is why I say I don't think all rich people are "evil." That's absurd. There are people who build wealth without exploitation, people with wealth who are respectable members of their community, people with wealth who did wonderful things like Andrew Carnegie...and plenty of wealthy people now days are totally cool people. I mean, I had friends in Vegas...one friend in particular ...who was a self-made millionaire, I used to sleep at her house sometimes. She's an ESTJ.

So I do not hate wealth. I hate how some people generate it and manage it.

 

[Thalassa]

Oh and that having no sense of identity without the family just seems to be an old-fashioned thing, period, because I believe people tend to still be that way more in the South, where people are more traditional.

I know my mothers side of the family out to third and fourth cousins, and grew up constantly around my great-aunts, great-uncles, and played with my cousins.

This is typical of Southern families, black and white, rich and poor.