[NT] reverse class discrimination

[Thalassa]

Wait, are you saying that blue-collar workers can't be middle-class, your family was living beyond its means, or that a three-bedroom house on an acre of land is very very cheap in West Virginia?

Well, first of all, blue-collar workers are not, by definition, middle class. Dearest Edgar pointed this out to me, that only working class people think money determines class status.

At any rate, an acre of land out in the middle of nowhere in WV is extraordinarily cheap. My grandfather and my uncle also helped build the house we lived in. It was really nice actually. I may live out in the middle of nowhere again someday.

There are houses you can buy in WV, even now, for like 30 or 40 thousand dollars.

 

[Thalassa]

the OP dealt with a group of people whom were both blue collar and philosophically parasitic. thus, people accused the original poster of being predjudiced against blue collar workers, so I posted the video to make the distinction between blue collar and entitlement mentality which is what the OP was really expressing disgust towards.
Edit: I was really defending hard blue collar workers as much condemning parasitic economic philosophy, though I suppose I didn't communicate this clearly enough

How do you know that the person the OP described was "philosophically parasitic"? All you folks need a jumping to conclusions mat. The person in question could find the OPs behavior unethical for some undisclosed reason, or even be one of those "salt of the earth" Republicans I was mentioning earlier.

I don't know of many "parasitic" farmers, btw. I think you might need to broaden your knowledge of other professions just a wee bit.

 

[Thalassa]

- feeling entitled to the fruits of another man's labor

So, like, CEOs who go play golf while their employees actually work are parasitic? I agree!

- condemnation of those who are more successful than one's self

Success is a relative concept.

- collectivism

On the contrary, collectivism amongst small groups who feel a sense of responsibility to one another can work quite morally with all people working together...in fact, it's quite superior to some other methods of survival, in my opinion.

I'd also like you to know that all "collectivist" cultures aren't communist, either. Collectivism is a mindset that can exist outside of economic theory.

- belief that man exist for the purpose of serving others and it therefore inadequate if he does not desire this purpose

Well, I'm not sure why you ascribe this to economic philosophy, because as far as I know a lot of people who believe in helping others believe in interdependence, not "existing for serving others."

 

[Beargryllz]

So, like, CEOs who go play golf while their employees actually work are parasitic? I agree!

For every CEO playing golf, there are dozens, maybe even hundreds of non-CEO employees playing golf. It is, I believe, an important detail to consider.

 

[Thalassa]

This is how I interpreted the OP. It seems like he's searching for us to say that his (ex)friend is jealous, but doesn't want to admit to it, so he is taking it out on the OP by attacking his profession. which is not completely unwarranted. I don't know, maybe we're projecting too much.

My parents (mostly my dad) seem to have a similar view towards anything deemed "academic", i.e. theory is all well and good, but in the real world it doesn't have much value. Also that professors are out of step with normal people.

That doesn't mean they're jealous. That may mean they believe professors have ivory tower syndrome.

It's so nice when we can all understand each other.

 

[Thalassa]

For every CEO playing golf, there are dozens, maybe even hundreds of non-CEO employees playing golf. It is, I believe, an important detail to consider.

Yes, because golf is entirely the point.

 

[Beargryllz]

Yes, because golf is entirely the point.

What is the point? Some back and forth nonsense about parasitism? What the fuck does that even mean? Every single human is living at the expense of countless living beings, but only a dedicated golfer will play golf when he or she could be making more dollars.

 

[Thalassa]

What is the point? Some back and forth nonsense about parasitism? What the fuck does that even mean? Every single human is living at the expense of countless living beings, but only a dedicated golfer will play golf when he or she could be making more dollars.

 

[mmhmm]

in thailand, the best driving ranges, instead of a machine to place
the balls on the tee, we get little old women sitting on stools, hand
placing them for you.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Well, first of all, blue-collar workers are not, by definition, middle class. Dearest Edgar pointed this out to me, that only working class people think money determines class status.

At any rate, an acre of land out in the middle of nowhere in WV is extraordinarily cheap. My grandfather and my uncle also helped build the house we lived in. It was really nice actually. I may live out in the middle of nowhere again someday.

There are houses you can buy in WV, even now, for like 30 or 40 thousand dollars.

And what, besides money, denotes class? If a person can afford a middle-class lifestyle they are middle-class in my book. Do you think someone has to have a white-collar job to be middle-class, even when they earn less than someone in construction? Do you think someone with a blue-collar job automatically works harder than someone working the same hours in a white-collar job?

 

[Thalassa]

And what, besides money, denotes class? If a person can afford a middle-class lifestyle they are middle-class in my book. Do you think someone has to have a white-collar job to be middle-class, even when they earn less than someone in construction? Do you think someone with a blue-collar job automatically works harder than someone working the same hours in a white-collar job?

Oh no, I don't actually believe any of those things. Why don't you ask Edgar? He's the expert. Apparently people carry their class with them FOREVER, despite money or education, etc.

I didn't get it either. However, those of us who equate class with money apparently bespeak a working class background, while those who are middle class are more concerned with education (?), and truly upper class people ...have debutante parties, hell I don't know.

 

[Thalassa]

Another point of contention I had is those of us who were exposed to both working and middle class lifestyles as a child, as well...I mean, since my great-aunt and great-uncle were into local politics in WV, and knew everybody, including the governor and had a picture of my second cousin sitting on JFKs lap.

 

[King sns]

Well, first of all, blue-collar workers are not, by definition, middle class. Dearest Edgar pointed this out to me, that only working class people think money determines class status.

At any rate, an acre of land out in the middle of nowhere in WV is extraordinarily cheap. My grandfather and my uncle also helped build the house we lived in. It was really nice actually. I may live out in the middle of nowhere again someday.

There are houses you can buy in WV, even now, for like 30 or 40 thousand dollars.

This view is totally fine with me. I'll be the milloinaire trailor trash any day. As long as I can travel and end with a nice IRA, I will gladly accept my lower class title! (Well, actually, since my group seems to be more concerned with education than money, maybe this definition made us middle class all along but just really poor. Who knows? Don't know, don't care! Just give me a car that runs . )

 

[bcubchgo]

Well this thread certainly exploded...

 

[Thalassa]

We were keeping it warm for you. We're parasitic nice like that.

 

[King sns]

Well this thread certainly exploded...

I like this thread. I just want to vomit all my opinions about money, classes, and self limiting beliefs in one place. And then reword it again and again to make it look like I'm saying new and different things. Thank you for providing a nice area for this. A+.

 

[Valiant]

Anyone in his right mind dislikes and despises greedy, self-important people who don't play well with others.
Ambition for the sake of knowledge is an awe-inspiring thing, and it is commendable. So is making a lot of money by your own work.
I love when people are really good at what they do, and I strive to be that myself.
But when that tips over into capitalizing off of the work of others? No, that is *not* something good or natural.
For most of our duration on this planet, that was not how things worked. It is just an abominable social construct devised during the last few thousand years.

Call me a simpleton if you will. If I lacked enough heart to be the greedy bastard with sharp elbows and no care for others that lives in all of us (and that normal people fight), then perhaps I could be a greedy psychopath like most successful business people are.
But no, I don't want to be that guy. I care for others, and I am most definitely a team player.
Trust me, you guys are just a waste product of too much peace. In trying times your rampant individualism would not be tolerated, and you would be crucified.

All in all, I'd like to be rich and I probably will be someday, because I work harder than anyone else. However. I probably need to remind you again, it is not being rich I despise.
It is the method of obtaining said $ through the work of others that is truly despicable and wrong. This isn't Sparta, yet there are slaves.
The only reason paid labor has it any better than slaves did is that the industry and farming nowadays is more effective, the slave owners remain the same bastards they always were.

 

[onemoretime]

What is the point? Some back and forth nonsense about parasitism? What the fuck does that even mean? Every single human is living at the expense of countless living beings, but only a dedicated golfer will play golf when he or she could be making more dollars.

He or she is making money as he or she plays golf. That's pretty much what many of us have a problem with.

 

[onemoretime]

And what, besides money, denotes class? If a person can afford a middle-class lifestyle they are middle-class in my book. Do you think someone has to have a white-collar job to be middle-class, even when they earn less than someone in construction? Do you think someone with a blue-collar job automatically works harder than someone working the same hours in a white-collar job?

Working class - you rent your labor to the owner of a means of production to secure the necessities of survival, plus whatever bonuses you can scrounge up. Both blue collar and white collar entry-level and middle-management types fall within this class (the ugly truth that we don't like to face)

Middle class - you own the means of your own production, but have to sell what you produce to secure the necessities of survival, either to a company or to customers/clients. Small/medium business owners, professionals like doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. fall within this class

Upper/capitalist class - you own a means of production, and profit off the labor of others by charging rent for the use of your means of production. As long as your means of production continues to run, you have to do nothing to secure the necessities of survival.

If you can stop working tomorrow, and never have to work again, you're in the upper/capitalist class. If you can stop working tomorrow, and take an extended break, and come back to work with little impact on your job status, you're middle class. If you can't stop working tomorrow, lest you starve in a few days/weeks or take a huge pay cut, you're working class.

 

[Elfboy]

First of all, I guess we better all stop speaking English. That's dangerous collective behavior, and expecting people to speak English when talking to me while in the English-speaking world is parasitic. Better to make up our own languages.

What about expecting people to act for mutual benefit?

expecting people to act for mutual benefit: no, at least not on a legal level
expecting people to act without hurting others in the process: yes
the fact is that most forms of making money involve some level of win-win for both parties. if not immediately than eventually.