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  1. #21
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    I'm not saying that being blue collar is a bad thing - but most blue collar people are not wealthy by any means.
    Most white-collar people are not wealthy by any means, either. The rich are a very small percentage (by most standards, anyway)

    Perhaps I did post this as a hostile "ENTJ gets kicked in the nutz" kind of post - but i was genuinely curious as to why someone would "look down" on someone for being business-minded, because that was the basis of my complaint I guess. I really don't know what the rationale was exactly...
    Let me rephrase - what and who does he complain about, specifically? Is it white-collar people in general, business-oriented people in general (who can include blue-collar-types), business-oriented white-collar people in particular, rich business-oriented white collar people, etc? Or is it you, personally, and you're extrapolating it to white collar people? Or perhaps it's both, either for similar and/or completely different reasons?

    For example, does he say" X people are slimebags" or "I hate people who do Y" or "you're a jerk!!!! I hate you!!!"?
    -end of thread-

  2. #22
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    Ever meet someone who has an attitude that seems to flaunt and revere blue collar ideology? The kind of person that seems to relish in being a simpleton? Holds grudges against other people for being too aggressive with their lives and is unable to understand the reasons why someone might hold themselves to a higher standard? Is focused on the belief that the common person is the most righteous person, and anyone who might be a braggart or business minded is somehow jaded towards life?

    I'm struggling to understand the ins and outs of this type of behavior. Is it a ruse to cover up the fact that their lives may not have turned out as important as they would have liked? Is it an acceptance of their own lifestyle and a expression of a principle they have come to embrace simply because they do not know how to live life any other way? Are they secretly wishing that they could escape their everyday lives and be someone else or are they truly happy the way they are?

    Ok, how about a sentence that doesn't end in a question mark.. lol.

    I know someone with this attitude and it seems to me that he is somewhat depressed in reality. When he is in his "element" he is probably very happy - people like him because he does exude an "equalizing" type personality - he has a way with people (superficially) that people seem to enjoy. He grew up on a farm and definitely has a pretty “easygoing” mentality.

    But then, there is another side to him - someone who (ultimately) feels a bit like a failure because he's not where he wanted to be in life. Someone who realizes that he might have missed his potential. Someone who sacrificed his dreams because he did it out of a sense of duty towards others.

    Sadly, if he does feel this way he refuses to discuss it, leading to a vicious cycle of negative emotions which people close to him become a victim of. It's as if, by denying himself the opportunity to believe that there is more to life, that he somehow has "risen above it" when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. It's almost as if his "arrogance" (for lack of a better word) is a cover for his real self. The self that is crushed by hopes and dreams that never got a chance to come to fruition.
    I grew up in a town and family environment who seemed to have this attitude. It's not spoken, it's kind of an unwritten law. I've never had a problem with people who want to strive for more. (I am one who always strives for more- not so much money and things, but success, freedom, and comfort.) I'm not really sure where the belief comes from. It's just an upbringing I guess. My grandmother seemed to believe that money = sin. Money is at the roots of sin, too much associated with vanity, and pride, and envy, and greed. The need for more, (for some people) is just not a mentality that "good" people have. Good people help others. Good millionaires give all their money away. Trying to reach a higher status in life is selfish and ungrateful. I've never been able to adopt that mentality. I've found it to be a restricted and depressed belief as well. I don't have a problem with lower and working class people, (because God knows I've seen it all, and I'm now barely touching middle class.) I think that their values just lie more in people, family, memories, God, religion- what have you. Those are all very valid (not depressing) beliefs. I just don't agree with feeling as though anyone who strives for money and success is bad. That's a depressing view in my mind. I don't like the excessive shoulds and shouldn'ts. I admit to saying, "Well she should go to college, they should get a better job." But really, now I just think that it's best to do what makes you happy. I noticed that when talking to any friends in this town, anyone who has been successful seems to receive this strange mixed reaction.. "Yea I'm happy for them but I'm suspicious." (No one would say that out loud, that just seems implied.)
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  3. #23
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    A lot of those "salt of the earth" people are Republicans, too...so I don't see this as necessarily being socialist. I mean his acquaintence could be a Democrat ...or a socialist, which is a very extreme accusation, IMO...A lot of small town Republicans think there is wisdom in doing your duty, living within your community, following Christian morals, "not getting above yourself"...and yes, some very religious Christians believe ambition of any kind is a sin.

    Though I've found most people are far more moderate. I don't think rich people are evil, I don't think all ambition is "sinful" (of course I don't identify as Christian, either) ...but I do find some specific business practices, et al, to be completely unethical. That's not the same thing as thinking rich people are all bad, or being depressed because you weren't a business success...not everyone wants that life. I mean seriously. Some people see that particular lifestyle as a stressful, useless pain in the ass even if they make no moral judgment on it.

    I think the "simpleton" comments are directed toward a person who doesn't value abstract learning as much as he does, too, which I think has nothing to do with socio-economic issues. SOME POOR PEOPLE LIKE TO READ!!!!

  4. #24
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Read "Culture is Ordinary" Raymond Williams.It applies mostly to 1950's british society, but it can be extrapolated and applied to modern us society
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #25
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    A lot of those "salt of the earth" people are Republicans, too...so I don't see this as necessarily being socialist. I mean his acquaintence could be a Democrat ...or a socialist, which is a very extreme accusation, IMO...A lot of small town Republicans think there is wisdom in doing your duty, living within your community, following Christian morals, "not getting above yourself"...and yes, some very religious Christians believe ambition of any kind is a sin.

    Though I've found most people are far more moderate. I don't think rich people are evil, I don't think all ambition is "sinful" (of course I don't identify as Christian, either) ...but I do find some specific business practices, et al, to be completely unethical. That's not the same thing as thinking rich people are all bad, or being depressed because you weren't a business success...not everyone wants that life. I mean seriously. Some people see that particular lifestyle as a stressful, useless pain in the ass even if they make no moral judgment on it.

    I think the "simpleton" comments are directed toward a person who doesn't value abstract learning as much as he does, too, which I think has nothing to do with socio-economic issues. SOME POOR PEOPLE LIKE TO READ!!!!
    That's true, too. It's hard to tell why people act the way they do. It could be for any variety of reasons.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    That's true, too. It's hard to tell why people act the way they do. It could be for any variety of reasons.
    Yep. Some people really are happy with small town life, too. I mean - the slower pace has its rewards, the front porch sitting, the puttering around the garden, knowing all your neighbors, waving and saying hi...there's nothing "depressing" about it, unless you're the sort of person who genuinely isn't satisfied with that. Not everyone wants that sort of yuppie lifestyle. It disturbs me when "yuppies" imagine everyone secretly envies them, when they aren't capable of seeing that people could actually WANT to live a different way and be happy for other reasons than material success and money.

    Of course, that sort of thinking I just described, it's only the flip side of the coin of the "salt of the earth" people being suspicious of anyone with different dreams or ambitions.

  7. #27
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Why do NTJs seem to believe that everyone else is hiding an inner NTJ?

    It's highly possible that this guy is ...oh let's say a sensing feeler, who honestly believes the best wisdom cannot be learned in books, but through hands-on work and life experiences, who enjoys being among people and feeling equal to them, who enjoys duty...so let's call him an SFJ, just for shits and giggles...who thinks as an ENTJ you're really aggressive and high strung (People do sometimes tend to think that of Te doms, no matter their socio-economic class...) and that you'd be happy if you just settled down and lived the simple life.

    And you think he'd be happier if he acted more like you.

    Do you see? Maybe his hopes and dreams are nothing like yours, and the two of you are just very different people, and the class thing is just incidental...though likely to be an issue since he grew up on a farm, and you're in business, so naturally...the two things have different interests.
    (Raises hand) I for one, have an inner ENTJ. I for one, would be happier if I actually were an ENTJ.

    But otherwse, this is so true. My best friend in highschool (ISFJ NO TYPE PREJUDICE IMPLIED, she just happens to be an ISFJ), anyway. Excellent in school. Pristine memory. Someone would ask her a question and she was one who could recite word for word from the book after one read. (They'd be like, Nicole! Use your own words.) Anyway, school smarts aside, she did go onto college and dropped out quickly to make money and be on her own. She said she would go again someday. Got married, never did go back. She believed she couldn't pay for it, (which is crazy, who in their right mind thinks that they can actually pay for college? Just figure it out, man.) Anyway, over time, I became quite annoyed with her. I was talking to her mom, who also sometimes judges Nicole and her husband. (Though the whole family does happen to be lower income.) She said, "Well sometimes I wish Nicole would have been more like you and gone off to do something and been more successful.. But we're slowly finding that we think that this is the lifestyle they want... They want to go to work and come home and not think about it anymore. They want to focus on church and being around the family and the pets and each other. They don't care. Now they're trying to have a baby! I'm going to be a grandmother."

    At that moment something clicked in my brain... I had always thought that not only should Nicole go "do something" with her life. (My definition of "do something",) but also felt that she was judging me for actually going ahead and "doing something." She may have been judging me, but now I think, maybe not... Maybe I'm just projecting my own stuff on to her. Saying, "Nicole thinks my lifestyle is bad." When the reverse is really true. I can only speculate. (I still kind of think she judges people of higher economic status a little bit...A few other's have agreed.. But, hey! She never did say that out loud!! You can't assume anything.)

    (Edit: I'm not claiming to be a high rollin' pimp or anything.... I still share many values with them. I did whatever made me happy.)
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  8. #28
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yep. Some people really are happy with small town life, too. I mean - the slower pace has its rewards, the front porch sitting, the puttering around the garden, knowing all your neighbors, waving and saying hi...there's nothing "depressing" about it, unless you're the sort of person who genuinely isn't satisfied with that. Not everyone wants that sort of yuppie lifestyle. It disturbs me when "yuppies" imagine everyone secretly envies them, when they aren't capable of seeing that people could actually WANT to live a different way and be happy for other reasons than material success and money.

    Of course, that sort of thinking I just described, it's only the flip side of the coin of the "salt of the earth" people being suspicious of anyone with different dreams or ambitions.
    Yes. Exactly. Yay for looking at all the angles!
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
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    by sns.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    (Raises hand) I for one, have an inner ENTJ. I for one, would be happier if I actually were an ENTJ.

    But otherwse, this is so true. My best friend in highschool (ISFJ NO TYPE PREJUDICE IMPLIED, she just happens to be an ISFJ), anyway. Excellent in school. Pristine memory. Someone would ask her a question and she was one who could recite word for word from the book after one read. (They'd be like, Nicole! Use your own words.) Anyway, school smarts aside, she did go onto college and dropped out quickly to make money and be on her own. She said she would go again someday. Got married, never did go back. She believed she couldn't pay for it, (which is crazy, who in their right mind thinks that they can actually pay for college? Just figure it out, man.) Anyway, over time, I became quite annoyed with her. I was talking to her mom, who also sometimes judges Nicole and her husband. (Though the whole family does happen to be lower income.) She said, "Well sometimes I wish Nicole would have been more like you and gone off to do something and been more successful.. But we're slowly finding that we think that this is the lifestyle they want... They want to go to work and come home and not think about it anymore. They want to focus on church and being around the family and the pets and each other. They don't care. Now they're trying to have a baby! I'm going to be a grandmother."

    At that moment something clicked in my brain... I had always thought that not only should Nicole go "do something" with her life. (My definition of "do something",) but also felt that she was judging me for actually going ahead and "doing something." She may have been judging me, but now I think, maybe not... Maybe I'm just projecting my own stuff on to her. Saying, "Nicole thinks my lifestyle is bad." When the reverse is really true. I can only speculate. (I still kind of think she judges people of higher economic status a little bit...A few other's have agreed.. But, hey! She never did say that out loud!! You can't assume anything.)

    (Edit: I'm not claiming to be a high rollin' pimp or anything.... I still share many values with them. I did whatever made me happy.)
    My ISFJ sister said me to once (I swear to God) that if she was a millionaire she'd still live in a double-wide trailer. She loves being a mother, she likes being married, she loves her family - and relationships and just living life are everything to her.

    I feel that I am something "in between" ...my mother has called me a yuppie, but I don't see myself that way at all, I think I'm just different in the sense that I didn't want to just settle down and get married and tra la la....but I'm not a yuppie. I'm really not. In some ways I feel more of a connection with small town people, but in others to people who have had other dreams and goals. I'm an in-betweener, and I think everyone tends to see things from their own perspective (which is why people judge others for being different, whatever "different" looks like).

  10. #30
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    My ISFJ sister said me to once (I swear to God) that if she was a millionaire she'd still live in a double-wide trailer. She loves being a mother, she likes being married, she loves her family - and relationships and just living life are everything to her.

    I feel that I am something "in between" ...my mother has called me a yuppie, but I don't see myself that way at all, I think I'm just different in the sense that I didn't want to just settle down and get married and tra la la....but I'm not a yuppie. I'm really not. In some ways I feel more of a connection with small town people, but in others to people who have had other dreams and goals. I'm an in-betweener, and I think everyone tends to see things from their own perspective (which is why people judge others for being different, whatever "different" looks like).
    Yes. I guess you could say I am too. I'm naturally inclined to want more for the sake of having more freedom to do whatever I want. I don't like mental, physical, monetary, spiritual, or emotional, restrictions. (That's not so much a yuppie thing, as I believe a giant house in the suburbs and working 50+ hours a week doesn't exactly support my purpose either.) But still I was raised in this environment, so I was forced to see the flip side of the picture, and understand it. I've been forced to be happy and comfortable with lower class living, so I know how someone can do that. It reminds me of that Jennifer Lopez song, "Jenny from the block." "I'm still I'm still Jenny from the block, used to have a little now I have a lot, no matter where I go I know where I came from!"

    (Edit: About judging people for being different... Yea, it's like saying, "I'm happy, why wouldn't they want to be happy too? Damn simpletons or money mongers!)
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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