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  1. #171
    Senior Member chachamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I know a woman from a middle class background, who worked as a stripper, and now is a doctor. What class is she?
    Upper Middle.
    a cat is fine too

  2. #172
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Still with the dismissiveness.

    We've already pointed out the reasons that income doesn't work as the sole determinant. We provided some means of economic determination. We then provided some means of cultural determination. I, for one, have learned a lot from others' perspectives in this thread.
    And I disagree as a matter of practicality on whether cultural traits are a useful determinant. Its one thing to study the norms, values, and mores which characterize large portions of the various economic classes, and speculate as to their sociological ramifications, but objective criteria is needed to even determine who qualifies as a member of the group being studied. A wal-mart cashier with a doctorate in philosophy is not middle-class (though there's a good chance they came from a middle-class family), they are simply an atypical member of the lower-class.

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by chachamaru View Post
    Upper Middle.
    Well, yes...now that she's a doctor.

  4. #174
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I know a woman from a middle class background, who worked as a stripper, and now is a doctor. What class is she?
    How much money is she making? Accumulated wealth is also useful information.

    Edit: Those were mostly rhetorical questions; depending on age and success, she is almost certainly either upper-middle or upper-class.

  5. #175
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    With socioeconomic class there are two separate parts .....the social part and the economic part.

    Rich people who behave badly do not stay rich for long. Long meaning for more than 1 Or 2 generation.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I was once informed by a (VERY) left-wing professor, then Virginia Tech Playwright-in-Residence Jerry McGlown, that class was not determined by income, but rather by education. His example was Elvis Presley: "Take a Georgia redneck and give him millions of dollars, and he finishes his basement in black and yellow naughahyde" (- J. McGlown, 1987).

    The piece that Jerry was missing, I think, was that you can send that same Georgia redneck to college and, once he's got out and got him a job, he might still finish his basement in black and yellow naughahyde. Though it's vital, I don't think education is always the transformative experience that Jerry thought it was.
    What about working class children who were strongly educated from childhood? With a lot of exposure to history and literature, with ballet and music training? Do they become middle class no matter what their parents jobs are (and no matter what their personal struggles with income as a young adult) by virtue of having always been educated?

    Does this mean by simply being by being born intelligent and intellectual, with normal exposure to libraries and schooling, you become middle class?

    That's the problem I have the cultural determination theory. Well, that, and there are people from middle class backgrounds who don't give a shit about global affairs, emphasize local affairs, and have an intolerance for perceived laziness. I like to call them "SJs." (J/K)

  7. #177
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    What about working class children who were strongly educated from childhood? With a lot of exposure to history and literature, with ballet and music training? Do they become middle class no matter what their parents jobs are (and no matter what their personal struggles with income as a young adult) by virtue of having always been educated?

    Does this mean by simply being by being born intelligent and intellectual, with normal exposure to libraries and schooling, you become middle class?

    That's the problem I have the cultural determination theory. Well, that, and there are people from middle class backgrounds who don't give a shit about global affairs, emphasize local affairs, and have an intolerance for perceived laziness. I like to call them "SJs." (J/K)
    Very good one
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #178
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    The problem with this thread is one is taking an outdated concept like "class" and trying to apply it to a society (the United States) for whom it's intended meaning (usually pre-war England) never fit all too well, and certainly doesn't fit today.

    "Class" used to mean more than just an amount of money. Wealth was inherited for the large part, and the culture and attitudes that went with this wealth were fairly well-defined. Now wealth is often merely just wealth, and "class" is just marker for a certain tax bracket.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    The problem with this thread is one is taking an outdated concept like "class" and trying to apply it to a society (the United States) for whom it's intended meaning (usually pre-war England) never fit all too well, and certainly doesn't fit today.

    "Class" used to mean more than just an amount of money. Wealth was inherited for the large part, and the culture and attitudes that went with this wealth were fairly well-defined. Now wealth is often merely just wealth, and "class" is just marker for a certain tax bracket.
    Ha! That's exactly what I said, several months ago. Class does not work in the United States because everything is so blurry here.

  10. #180
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Barriers to entry? What would keep you from starting a local business under these terms? Because, of course, it'll have to start small. It could be as small as a convenience store, or a real estate brokerage, or a barber shop. One would have to do it as a sole proprietorship at first, of course, because operating on a not-for-profit basis is incompatible with venture capital, and even more so with offerings of public stock.

    But there's no barrier to starting with a business license and a sole proprietorship.
    Licenses, certifications, registration requirements, environmental standards, insurance requirements, etc...

    All of those help impose significant barriers to entry for even a small business. Almost all of those came about as the result of industry lobbying, specifically to keep potential competitors out.

    Neither the Right nor the Left have it totally right - business isn't the problem, and government isn't the problem. The problem is the nexus between business and government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Little use for non-practical education? Respect for accepted authorities? Low priority on global affairs?

    Tell me, are these working class people, or just some of those "salt of the earth" Republicans I described earlier, because this has nothing to do with my own experience of life.
    There's a big difference between "education" and "learning." Working class people love to learn. They also hate indoctrination from sources that seem out of touch with their own experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, but your "cultural determination" actually points to the existence of there possibly being "a fourth class." Just like Edgar's comments about white trash.

    Those people aren't just "working class."
    Yeah, the lumpenproletariat. The ones who feel perpetually disenfranchised from society as a whole.

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