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  1. #111
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Seriously, man? We're already knee deep in off topicness. I don't think we want to go down this road right now.
    I was bringing up a sidenote, not suggesting a topic change. perhaps in the future I should put side note next to such comments
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  2. #112
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT
    I'm not gonna disagree with this, but I think:

    money = power
    power = class

    They're connected, but only in relation to power. /nitpicking


    i am not trying to paint myself as very knowledgeable about class, because really i am not, but i think it has a lot to do with your perception in the eyes of others. SRT's connection gets at this.

    money is important to class because money generally translates into influence. however, you can have a lot of money, but if you are not accepted by those of the existing upper classes, then you yourself are not really upper class. witness, for example, the american southern division between "old money" and "new money". old money is still of higher class than new money. why it is more respectable to have your great-great-grandfather being the one who made your family's money, as opposed to your daddy, i do not know - but i think the point is the old rich being miffed that the new rich were threatening their status, and so had to find some non-monetary means of delineation to maintain their higher position.

    [edited]

    i am from a southern area where certain non-monetary elements of class remain curiously important. i think a lot of my life - much more than i realized until this point, actually - has been colored by classist demarcations. southern society is quite a picky, strange thing. there's old money and new money, and there are elements off elfboy's list that apply here. to be upper class, you need to be image-attentive and you need to have certain social skills and knowledge. it's really a very cultural thing, more than purely financial. some people in the south, i am sure - and not just upper class people - would argue that "transplants" can never be included in the southern upper class because they are not from here. but i think it's just testimony to what a really complex thing that extends beyond simply money or power class is - at least here. you could move here with an assload of money, but if you didn't have the correct schooling and knowledge, you'd just be a rich outcast.

    i wonder how much class really impacts quality of life, though. the upper class families that i know seem pretty damn happy for the most part, but that's one of those southern social things you learn - regardless of how much misery you're in, you don't talk about it unless it's "acceptable" misery. certain surgeries are in; financial woes are out (plenty of upper class people are breaking the bank with all the shit they buy beyond their means).

  3. #113
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    i just say let them eat cake.
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i am not trying to paint myself as very knowledgeable about class, because really i am not, but i think it has a lot to do with your perception in the eyes of others. SRT's connection gets at that. money is important to class because money often translates into influence. however, you can have a lot of money, but if you are not accepted by those of the existing upper classes, then you yourself are not really upper class. witness, for example, the american division between "old money" and "new money". old money is still of higher class than new money. why it is more respectable to have your great-great-grandfather being the one who made your family's money, as opposed to your daddy, i do not know - but i think the point is the old rich being miffed that the new rich were threatening their status, and so had to find some non-monetary means of delineation to maintain their higher position.
    I read a great deal of 19th and early 20th century British literature, so I can be of help with that. "Old money" knew how to behave (or at least they did, once upon a time, before Paris Hilton was born)...they were educated and well-bred. They had fine manners and taste. They were discreet and gracious. They lived well. They did NOT speak of money in public, nor did they flaunt their wealth. They knew how to save, invest, et al.

    "New money" was associated with braggarts, ignorance, flashy behavior, lack of manners, you name it.

    And this correlation does make sense in that regard, examined from the perspective of the past.

  5. #115
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    "New money"
    nouveau riche, what would the social pages do without them <3
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  6. #116
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.
    I'd say that it's not necessarily about money, and more about access to resources, or the impact that scarcity of resources has on one's life. In the upper/capitalist class, scarcity of resources has no impact on one's life whatsoever. In the middle class, scarcity of resources is the means by which you make your living. In the working class, scarcity of resources is why you cannot escape your station in life.

  7. #117
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i am not trying to paint myself as very knowledgeable about class, because really i am not, but i think it has a lot to do with your perception in the eyes of others. SRT's connection gets at that. money is important to class because money often translates into influence. however, you can have a lot of money, but if you are not accepted by those of the existing upper classes, then you yourself are not really upper class. witness, for example, the american division between "old money" and "new money". old money is still of higher class than new money. why it is more respectable to have your great-great-grandfather being the one who made your family's money, as opposed to your daddy, i do not know - but i think the point is the old rich being miffed that the new rich were threatening their status, and so had to find some non-monetary means of delineation to maintain their higher position.
    Somewhat. Old money is far more collectivistic and family-oriented than new money. Old money families have no sense of personal wealth - the idea is that the wealth is the family's wealth, which has been entrusted to the adult members to perpetuate and grow for the next generation. Thus, there's no inclination to make big and flashy purchases - that would be a frivolous waste of the family's money. However, things that have a sense of permanence and historical connection absolutely are worth spending the family's money, because those things will provide an enduring legacy to the children and grandchildren. The greatest source of wealth in the eyes of this class of people, though, is the time spent with the whole, big family, because one's sense of identity is incomplete outside of these gatherings. Of course, that means there's simply a lot of these gatherings.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    i just say let them eat cake.
    Lmao. This is such lovely win.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Somewhat. Old money is far more collectivistic and family-oriented than new money. Old money families have no sense of personal wealth - the idea is that the wealth is the family's wealth, which has been entrusted to the adult members to perpetuate and grow for the next generation. Thus, there's no inclination to make big and flashy purchases - that would be a frivolous waste of the family's money. However, things that have a sense of permanence and historical connection absolutely are worth spending the family's money, because those things will provide an enduring legacy to the children and grandchildren. The greatest source of wealth in the eyes of this class of people, though, is the time spent with the whole, big family, because one's sense of identity is incomplete outside of these gatherings. Of course, that means there's simply a lot of these gatherings.
    I agree. I think this is why I tend to respect (somewhat) the idea of old money; also the fact that they knew they had a duty to the poor, they took care of their servants, tenant farmers, etc.

    I'm not saying people with old money were entirely better, because it was still a repressive class system, but somehow I find modern capitalism to be much more distasteful and evil.

    This is why I say I don't think all rich people are "evil." That's absurd. There are people who build wealth without exploitation, people with wealth who are respectable members of their community, people with wealth who did wonderful things like Andrew Carnegie...and plenty of wealthy people now days are totally cool people. I mean, I had friends in Vegas...one friend in particular ...who was a self-made millionaire, I used to sleep at her house sometimes. She's an ESTJ.

    So I do not hate wealth. I hate how some people generate it and manage it.

  10. #120
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    Oh and that having no sense of identity without the family just seems to be an old-fashioned thing, period, because I believe people tend to still be that way more in the South, where people are more traditional.

    I know my mothers side of the family out to third and fourth cousins, and grew up constantly around my great-aunts, great-uncles, and played with my cousins.

    This is typical of Southern families, black and white, rich and poor.

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