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  1. #101
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Working class - you rent your labor to the owner of a means of production to secure the necessities of survival, plus whatever bonuses you can scrounge up. Both blue collar and white collar entry-level and middle-management types fall within this class (the ugly truth that we don't like to face)

    Middle class - you own the means of your own production, but have to sell what you produce to secure the necessities of survival, either to a company or to customers/clients. Small/medium business owners, professionals like doctors, lawyers, architects, etc. fall within this class

    Upper/capitalist class - you own a means of production, and profit off the labor of others by charging rent for the use of your means of production. As long as your means of production continues to run, you have to do nothing to secure the necessities of survival.

    If you can stop working tomorrow, and never have to work again, you're in the upper/capitalist class. If you can stop working tomorrow, and take an extended break, and come back to work with little impact on your job status, you're middle class. If you can't stop working tomorrow, lest you starve in a few days/weeks or take a huge pay cut, you're working class.
    Hmm... All classes make sense. (I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with them though.) The last paragraph still seems to support the class= money theory.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Hmm... All classes make sense. The last paragraph still seems to support the class= money theory.
    Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.

  3. #103
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.
    Well I think class is mostly money too. (Along with some amount of prestige.. like, maybe the stripper makes more money than the teacher, but many would argue that the teacher is in a higher class.) In the same breath, I couldn't tell if onemoretime agreed or disagreed based on the post.
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  4. #104
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.
    in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
    1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation)
    2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
    3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
    4) options. being in control of when you work, where you work, and what you do and how you act

    Edit: I suppose item 2 has a very slight correlation with type. NFPs for instance are pretty likely to be high class in this regard
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  5. #105
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
    1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation. for instance, an investor who works 4 hours a week whenever and where ever he wants and makes $500,000 a year will probably have a higher standard of living wehn compared to a CEO who works 70 hours a week but makes $700,000 a year)
    2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
    3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
    Huh, I never thought of class in this way before. -
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    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  6. #106
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    to the OP...

    i think that perhaps in addition to a projection of frustration towards others because the blue-collar advocate did not push himself harder, i imagine that it's a frustration towards a society which does celebrate and reward people who climb the corporate ladder, as opposed to those who work hard and ethically. and of course you can do both, but (at least my) culture reveres those at the top of the food chain regardless of the nasty means they may have used to get themselves there. so i could easily see someone being pissed at those people who have risen through uncouth means, generalizes that, and therefore distrusts the whole group.

    but yes, he also may well be masking his own disappointment - classical freudian reaction formation.

    "[t]he instincts and their derivatives may be arranged as pairs of opposites: life versus death, construction versus destruction, action versus passivity, dominance versus submission, and so forth. When one of the instincts produces anxiety by exerting pressure on the ego either directly or by way of the superego, the ego may try to sidetrack the offending impulse by concentrating upon its opposite. For example, if feelings of hate towards another person make one anxious, the ego can facilitate the flow of love to conceal the hostility."
    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    this thread is making me dizzy..
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    At that moment something clicked in my brain... I had always thought that not only should Nicole go "do something" with her life. (My definition of "do something",) but also felt that she was judging me for actually going ahead and "doing something." She may have been judging me, but now I think, maybe not... Maybe I'm just projecting my own stuff on to her. Saying, "Nicole thinks my lifestyle is bad." When the reverse is really true. I can only speculate. (I still kind of think she judges people of higher economic status a little bit...A few other's have agreed.. But, hey! She never did say that out loud!! You can't assume anything.)
    yeah... i have a friend who graduated, got pregnant, kept it, got married, and now works at a diner and is working on making a family. i know that's not a path i want to take, but at the same time, i haven't decided my own path yet. i used to feel superior - not morally, but in terms of class/money/status/whatever. more recently i have looked at her life and realized how supportive her family is, how much she loves her child, how her baby-daddy has chosen to marry her because he actually does love her, and they might not be rich, but they're living a life of love. the practical and classist side of me shivers and says they're just screwing with their ability to be financially secure and happy later on. some other side of me says they're living a really beautiful life. i figure both are true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But those born with wealth also frequently feel "entitled."
    yes. though i think it's often not as "evil" as it's portrayed. if you're born into relative wealth, you're probably pretty used to a certain degree of positive feedback. so why all of a sudden should you be deprived of it? like, if you've worked decently in school, done lots of extracurriculars, gotten into a good college, graduated well, and suddenly you're smack-bottom of the food chain... it's like all of a sudden you're putting the same amount of effort in that you always have, but with so much less return. hence entitlement - it feels unfair for that to happen. like a rug being pulled out from under your feet.

    and just because i'm surprised no one has posted it yet,


  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
    1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation)
    2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
    3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
    4) options. being in control of when you work, where you work, and what you do and how you act

    Edit: I suppose item 2 has a very slight correlation with type. NFPs for instance are pretty likely to be high class in this regard
    A person can be extremely sophisticated in their tastes and culture and be technically working or middle class, meanwhile the asshat heiress Paris Hilton is shaming her entire family and asking if Wal-Mart sells walls.

    A person who is working class can also have a great deal of integrity, self-respect, and respect for others.

    None of these things have to do with class. Numbers 2 and 3 may have been more relevant in the 19th century because the upper class tended to be more educated than the lower classes, and had a stricter belief in behaving themselves than they do now days.

    In fact, number 3 was more in vogue for every class in the 19th century in the Western world...so still, not really about class.

  8. #108
    Senior Member SRT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Class does = money. Maybe some people just enjoy lying to themselves.
    I'm not gonna disagree with this, but I think:

    money = power
    power = class

    They're connected, but only in relation to power. /nitpicking

  9. #109
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    A person can be extremely sophisticated in their tastes and culture and be technically working or middle class, meanwhile the asshat heiress Paris Hilton is shaming her entire family and asking if Wal-Mart sells walls.

    A person who is working class can also have a great deal of integrity, self-respect, and respect for others.

    None of these things have to do with class. Numbers 2 and 3 may have been more relevant in the 19th century because the upper class tended to be more educated than the lower classes, and had a stricter belief in behaving themselves.
    exactly, that's why I put them as seperate types of class. they are by no means more than loosely correlated. a working class man who makes $20,000 a year can be very classy in terms of types 2 and 3
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  10. #110
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    in my book, there are several different kinds of class, a few are listed below
    1) standard of living (not quite the same as money, but certainly with strong correlation)
    2) sophistication, tastes, culture, education and artistic appreciation
    3) integrity, self esteem and respect for others
    4) options. being in control of when you work, where you work, and what you do and how you act

    Edit: I suppose item 2 has a very slight correlation with type. NFPs for instance are pretty likely to be high class in this regard
    Seriously, man? We're already knee deep in off topicness. I don't think we want to go down this road right now.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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