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[INTP] INTP's drive towards anti-socialization - a social behaviour!

Fluffywolf

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Hypothesis:

The INTP's drive towards anti-socialization, is one of the INTP's strongest social behaviours.

INTP background:

An INTP does not easily inherit the norms, customs and ideologies of their peers. They have an inherit need to deviate from those and create their own norms, customs and ideologies. This behaviour is almost constantly present within the INTP. As a result of this behaviour, the INTP differentiates itself from the social norm and is often seen as an anti-social hermit of sorts. Like a smeagol in middle earth!

However, the drive that results in this behaviour is inherently social, as it attempts to question and improve on broadly accepted norms, instead of blindly following them. In order to better society for each and every one of us!

So one could say, the INTP's are the pioneers of future society, today! (Slightly sugar coated it there. I tinny bit. >.> )

So INTP's are in fact very social creatures. Argueably even more so then some other types who are considered social by the current norm! :yes:

Discuss. xD
 
R

RDF

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I would surmise that Fe (organization of one's social environment) is an INTP's inferior function. So INTPs tend to be paranoid about using Fe. So instead they use Ti (their dominant function) to handle social matters. It's not a bad substitution, in that Ti and Fe are both organizing/J functions. But since INTPs are paranoid of Fe and all things social, they generally tend to use their Ti to minimize their social contacts. It's like INFPs using Fi to carry out Te functions. Fi and Te are both organizing/J functions, but organizing one's physical environment according to emotional gut instincts probably isn't going to be the best of plans.

In short, it would probably better if INTPs were to simply bite the bullet, get over their paranoias, and learn to practice Fe by the numbers: Study rules of proper socializing, get used to doing the standard courtesies, learn when to say yes vs. when (and how) to say no when asked to do something, etc. Similarly, INFPs would find life a lot easier if they would get over their paranoias and learn to practice Te by the numbers: Set up filing systems, organize projects with outlines or flow charts or whatever, schedule their days properly and stick to the schedule, etc.
 

Litvyak

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However, the drive that results in this behaviour is inherently social, as it attempts to question and improve on broadly accepted norms, instead of blindly following them. In order to better society for each and every one of us!

Well, no. INTs are not altruists, they're doing it for themselves, mostly because they find other options too hard to implement. It is a lot more convenient to mask themselves as pioneers of society instead of intelligent yet socially awkward creatures.
They are experts in creating systems, so they construct their own narrative based on such delusions of grandeur, and force every unfamiliar experience to match with the initial premise of them being an innovator and a victim of human simple-mindedness. This further alienates them from society.
 

Litvyak

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So INTP's are in fact very social creatures. Argueably even more so then some other types who are considered social by the current norm! :yes:

You're just twisting definitions.

Alceste likes to point out everybody's mistakes, while telling them how pathetic they are and how much they suck. He does this pretty often.
Pointing out mistakes requires social interaction.
So Alceste is the most social person in town.
 

Fluffywolf

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Well, no. INTs are not altruists, they're doing it for themselves, mostly because they find other options too hard to implement. It is a lot more convenient to mask themselves as pioneers of society instead of intelligent yet socially awkward creatures.
They are experts in creating systems, so they construct their own narrative based on such delusions of grandeur, and force every unfamiliar experience to match with the initial premise of them being an innovator and a victim of human simple-mindedness. This further alienates them from society.

Just on a side note first, but not really related to what I am going to say, I'm not doing it just for myself, I tend to do the same for people I care about (not always with success but that's another story!).

But that aside, you do bring up some interesting points, and I can agree to most of your points in themselves. However, you are wrong in the assumption that it is more convenient for us to paint ourselves as pioneers, rather than socially awkward creatures. I like being alone and tend to shy away from any and all attention that I do not find neccesary. Being a socially awkward creature in the eyes of other people gives me all the freedom I need to be the person I want to be.

So let me take away the sugarcoating from my above post and say that we may -indirectly- be responsible for raising questions that could benefit the whole of society, by being the hermit people we are. To which our drive to push away from the norm is a key factor in realizing this change. Which is a slightly better way of putting the thoughts I had to words. :>

As an example, I give you this hypothetical situation:

It is a certain guys birthday party today, his name is first guy, at his party there is another guy named second guy who asks the first guy if a certain known INTP will also come to the party. The first guy says: "No, he never comes to visit anyways and said he didn't feel like coming just because it's my birthday party.". To which the other guy replies: "Right, such an asocial crapheap, never liked him anyway.". "Aye." the first guy says, "He really takes the piss.". After a brief pause, the other guy responds: "You know, he does have a point though. Only coming on someones birthday but never any other day makes you wonder about how loyal those people really are to you, so why just not come at all.". "Well, it's proper habit to celebrate someone's birthday no?", the first one claims, "and besides, you only ever see me on my birthday.". "Yeah, but I like parties.". "So you like my party, but you don't like me?". "Pretty much, I'm thirsty.". "Fine, want a beer?". "Sure, thanks mate.". "So how's the wife and kids?". "Great! My wife is really fitting in her new job and my son is getting straight aces in school, I'm so proud!". "Awesome!". "What about your deal with that large contract you were working on?". "Nah, did not quite pan out, I am working on something bigger right now!"....

...One year later...

"Hey first guy, isn't second guy coming?", "Nah mate, I didn't come on his birthday either." "Why not?" "Dude just drinks my beer mate.". "I just drink your beer?". "Yeah but you drink my bear at least fifteen times a year, not just the one time.". "Yeah... That makes perfect sense...".

And thus, indirectly, the INTP is breaking up peoples bad habits of celebrating each other birthdays for the sole reason of partying and drinking their beer.

This can only be a good thing, no?

For a better future, become a socially awkward hermit today. :>

Anyhow, bottomline is that our descisions are not made solely based on what we feel is easiest or most effecient for us. But also largely to what we feel is right for us, and others. And showing up only at someones birthday but never any other day, would make us feel like hipocrits and leechers. So we'd rather not go at all. Not becuase it's easier to not go. But because it is impossible to go with a smile on our faces. :D

Disclaimer: Used birthday example is a highly subjective and biased situation that may not be true to all INTP's, but as a hypothetical example, there are no doubt similar situations for every INTP out there that deals with the same core issue.
 

JocktheMotie

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Yeah, sorry Fluffy, but this is like the ontological proof of INTP sociability. Not buying it.
 

Fluffywolf

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You're just twisting definitions.

Alceste likes to point out everybody's mistakes, while telling them how pathetic they are and how much they suck. He does this pretty often.
Pointing out mistakes requires social interaction.
So Alceste is the most social person in town.

Oh no no no.

I was pointing out more towards truth and underlying meaning to peoples actions, without showing tact or modesty. When argueably, tact and modesty, although widely accepted as good social norms, might not improve a persons situation as much as truth and underlying meaning might do. So in the larger scheme or prosperity, a little INTP bluntness, can go a long way. Indirectly creating a more livable environment. Hypothetically!

I mean there's also potential cases such an approach could backfire ofcourse. But then it's all about weighing both sides of the scale and see which one tips over. Thus, it is argueable better, but not better per se.
 

slowriot

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Its fascinating how little people really know about INTPs considering the sheer amount of threads on the subject here.

This is not meant as "INTPs are the crop of the earth" I'll leave the gloating of ones type to the other NT types. They seem to be much better at that :devil:

I do however not completely agree with the OP. Eventhough I may do as described, its not a extreme as in the OP when it comes to real life behavior. I am more likely to act according to some social dynamic I may not agree completely on so I can keep in touch with the people I care for, than to discard the social interaction and eventually lose the friends I care for.

The problem with social change is that if you sit in your own little utopia and dont engage the people around you in those changes you see neccesary you gain very little in the sense of accomplishment and debate. I would say that what an INTPs greatests strenghts is, is being a catalyst for change through debate and by accomplishing that change.

Being a hermit will not get you very far and the utopia you have created will die with you.

About being a hermit or anti social, when I withdraw from people I do so, not because of peoples behaviors etc, but because I choose to. Even as much other people can be part of why I choose as I do, it is ME that do so out of free will, I dont blame others what is my own doing.

What I mean is either you are passive or are you proactive. Eventhough the stereotype is INTPs are passive, its far from the life experience I have. Im far more proactive than people I meet.
 

Fluffywolf

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Its fascinating how little people really know about INTPs considering the sheer amount of threads on the subject here.

Very interesting points and I find myself in a lot of your words as many situations are concerned. But I was more aiming at the fact that being passive, may also indirectly cause pro-active change. Instead of being pro-active from the get go.

I think we are very sociable creatures, with a keen sense on how to find the environment that suits our needs and the needs of the people around us. And that sense is not limited to being proactive, but extends into our passive, anti-socialistic, behaviour. When we show a retreat, why do we retreat? What are the reasons for our retreat? What are we trying to avoid and what are we trying to gain? I think all INTP's have a pretty good grasp of the answers to those questions, and more often than not, they are directly grounded on social reasons.
 

Greta

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Anti-social = passive?

The reason a lot of these arguments don't get off the ground is the loose equation of terms that are, at best, merely related. To say nothing of the wrong terms being used in the first place. Asocial (what I think you mean) is not the same as anti-social. And being asocial is not the same as being passive with respect to social involvement. Further, I doubt INTPs who actively shun needless and tiresome social involvement intend to be or see themselves as any sort of pioneers. As much as INTPs may question social norms and reject what they find useless or stupid, any drive to influence anyone to adopt the INTP's views and attitudes seems rather un-INTP.
 

Fluffywolf

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I suppose the difference is that anti-social behaviour has the intention to be so, whereas a-social behaviour may unintendedly lead to anti-social behaviour. So in that sense, yeah, I do mean asocial behaviour. Little language barrier I suppose. In dutch there isn't any actual difference between 'antisociaal' and 'asociaal' and 'asociaal' is widely used as a negative term to people who are not social, arrogant and stuck up.

I'm mostly Ne-ing in this topic and have failed to give any substantial evidence to back up my claims, this I am aware of and my sincere apologies for that, I will make it up below with something I noticed in my work relationship with my brother over the course of 10 years. That aside, I do feel I am on to something. On self-reflecting and reflecting back, I believe INTP's have a stronger social position than what might be apparant to the masses. And our behaviour that is seen as "asocial" more often than not, have very social reasons and intentions backing them up in the mind of the INTP. The drive that makes us the people we are, are based on a certain mindset that for all intents and purposes are to create a better social environment, firstly for ourselves, and secondly for the people around us.

any drive to influence anyone to adopt the INTP's views and attitudes seems rather un-INTP.

I think you've misunderstood me on that part though. I never said or intended to say that the INTP attempts to influence others by showing 'asocial' behaviour into their own patterns, but rather influence them indirectly to by raising questions and creating conflicts where the norm sees no problem. See it is causing people to think outside of the box. To look at something at an angle they may not previously have thought off. And through that influence, people create a better understanding by themselves, not neccesarily the understanding the INTP has, or not even remotely close to the understanding the INTP has. Since behaviour, society and 'the norm' are all highly biased idealogies, that differ from person to person, there really isn't a way one could say that is the right way and that is the wrong way. What may be right for some, might be wrong for others and vice versa. But the INTP's behaviour leads to a different level of thinking, and thus creates an elevation of social norms.

I could try to explain using an example from my real life. I work closely together with my brother, both running different parts of the company. Both have our own skillsets and both have our own duties for the most part. But sometimes we do ofcourse end up working at the same thing. I am INTP and my brother is ENTP. My brother, like me, is all for effeciency, not doing anything that doesn't need to be done, playing with deadlines, and seeing plenty of ways to minimize effort in order to get things done. This isn't a bad thing for us because it does leave us with plenty of time focusing on new development, which is a good thing being entrepeneurs. But when our work coincides, especially if what we need to do is something menial, like washing and preparing a bus (coach) in the middle of the night just after it returned because it has to go to another customer in 3 hours or so. Our way of thinking clashes. My brother will move and act in such accordance, that at every turn on the way, I end up doing just a little more than him. If five tables have to be put in the coach, he will wait for me to pick up the first, so he takes the second, me the third, he the fourth, me the fifth, etc. Things like that, many times a day, every day, with anything you can name. Now I used to address him on it in the beginning (quite socially to the norm!), since he always does it, every single time, and it started to frustrate me. And most of the time, we'd end up having some silly discussion about semantics and end up wasting even more time, not getting much work done at all as a result.

Many years ago (Probably like 8 years ago now), I chose to ignore the subject alltogether and just completely avoid all conflict, I figured I'd bite through his many little schemes and get on with it, because we started to get too much friction between us and my brother isn't very stress resistant, facing a burn out and I feared for further decline and the situation escalating into something much worse (There was a lot of work stress as well at the time, and everything just seemed to start and add up.). So I entered my little INTP shell of avoidance. Trying to keep the work pace up, and be done with things. No arguements and no more conflicts with my brother.

Oddly, and this happened fairly quickly after I started to ignore his frustrating behaviour, keeping the work pace up. He started to go with the flow of the pace himself, and his little schemes of super effeciency died down and became nothing more than the draw of the luck. Odd, I thought! But hey, I'm cool with it, things were looking up and much less frustration seeped out of either one of us. Ever since then, my work relationship with my brother has been extremely stale, but at the same time, much more effecient and stress free. Where we were first clashing against each other, not getting into the flow of work at all, being all P vs P. We no longer have any issues with this. I just take the lead, let him do whatever he does, and do whatever I do, and work just gets done. I never asked him about this change, and don't intend to. But it must have been a conscious change on his side as well.

Now I am wondering. What is social behaviour, if not behaviour that improves a social environment? Even though that behaviour may seem typically asocial. And what makes it hard to grasp, that an INTP's assumed asocial behaviour, may be a means to better a social environment. And that it is our way of being social?
 

Coriolis

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@ the OP: Now that there has been some discussion, I think I understand better what you mean. I agree that it is unlikely that an INTP will push others to adopt their views. More than that, however, I think even the questioning is not directed toward that purpose. I do not see the INTP acting with the intention of improving society, or even the individual lives around them, though that may sometimes be the result. The INTP rather seems to question and to act (e.g. not attend the party) in response to a need to maintain their own internal logical consistency. When confronted by something that does not make sense, especially something they themselves are being expected to do, they will question it, or outright balk. The benefit, as you suggest, comes when others witness the INTP response, stop taking the situation for granted and actually think about it for a change, and perhaps realize that they can depart from the norm as well.

My SO of > 10 years is INTP, and I can tell you he is much like this. Both of us act and respond based upon what makes sense, regardless of convention or others' expectations. We realize in doing so that we often set an example for others around us, and sometimes can even see the influence this example has. I am more likely to ask the pointed, uncomfortable questions with the deliberate intent of forcing others to think, and to push "my views" on someone, but usually only a close friend, when I think it really is in their best interests. All that is probably just indicative of our J/P differences, though.
 

lunalum

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Hypothesis: The INTP's drive towards anti-socialization, is one of the INTP's strongest social behaviours.

An INTP does not easily inherit the norms, customs and ideologies of their peers. They have an inherit need to deviate from those and create their own norms, customs and ideologies. This behaviour is almost constantly present within the INTP. As a result of this behaviour, the INTP differentiates itself from the social norm and is often seen as an anti-social hermit of sorts.
However, the drive that results in this behaviour is inherently social, as it attempts to question and improve on broadly accepted norms, instead of blindly following them. In order to better society for each and every one of us!

I'm not sure about this, as some INTPs may just not like to socialize as much because they don't like it/see any use in it.....then the improving of society by challenging these norms is in some cases unintentional, not a revolutionary measure.

But for those who do actually do it for revolution, I see your point.

I think the drive towards being 'anti-social' can be social in another way though, as those who do not fit into the norms of society at large tend to want to find other people who also do not fit in. This forum is my proof of this ;)
 

Fluffywolf

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I'm not sure about this, as some INTPs may just not like to socialize as much because they don't like it/see any use in it.....then the improving of society by challenging these norms is in some cases unintentional, not a revolutionary measure.

But for those who do actually do it for revolution, I see your point.

I think the drive towards being 'anti-social' can be social in another way though, as those who do not fit into the norms of society at large tend to want to find other people who also do not fit in. This forum is my proof of this ;)

Actually, my first post wasn't worded properly, I got carried away a little, I sometimes do that. The thinking it is a revolution part was me going all like "eureka, my behaviour does lead to social improvements!" Whilest the actual actions that lead to social improvements, were indirect and not as conscious. So I was getting ahead of myself.

To clarify, thinking back on my INTP like asocial behaviour patterns in many situations, I did not see them as social behaviours at the time, even though they were consciously based on finding the best solution to a problem for me as well as all parties involved in the situation. And now, in hindsight, I am like "Hey, it is a kind of social behaviour! Because my reasons and intentions were to improve the social environment and solve social issues. Even though my behaviour would be seen as typically asocial, in the sense that INTP's do it.". And it wasn't until after that realization that I got all revolutionary on your asses. Rawr *wink*.

There's many points one could extract from this topic, but I think the point I was trying to get accross was giving insight to how INTP's social behaviour works in many situations, and that our typical asocial behaviour, is not in all cases as asocial as one might think, unhealthy INTP's aside.

PS: Five stars? Oh gosh you flatter me so, my secret admirer. <3
 

PH.

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When I'm not behaving on my most social way, people just give me weird looks, really xD

I think you have to be very intelligent to reflect on yourself like you portrayed in your first post. Most people don't do that. They just feel awkward because someone doesn't care for the little rules society (unconsciously) made up. I sometimes even sense that people are getting scared of me because of my... somewhat peculiar way of acting. My mothers boyfriend (hardcore ESFJ) really had to get used to me. I like verbal sparring with my boyfriend and his father. Trying to outwit each other. She get's very uncomfortable with my bluntness and says things like: "oh she doesn't really mean that" or "well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion" (when he says mine is stupid).

She really gets on my nerves, needless to say :D
 

quidtimeam

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It's not a question of being social or anti-social as such, but the type of sociability. I can be extremely social when I feel comfortable that I will be around people that will listen to and understand my ideas, but completely asocial around most other people. Inferior Fe cares very simply and directly, and highly complicated social events like loud parties with lots of strangers overload me, but a night of conversation with good friends or intimate companions I can focus on without much distraction is very appealing.
 
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