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  1. #1
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Default INTP's drive towards anti-socialization - a social behaviour!

    Hypothesis:

    The INTP's drive towards anti-socialization, is one of the INTP's strongest social behaviours.

    INTP background:

    An INTP does not easily inherit the norms, customs and ideologies of their peers. They have an inherit need to deviate from those and create their own norms, customs and ideologies. This behaviour is almost constantly present within the INTP. As a result of this behaviour, the INTP differentiates itself from the social norm and is often seen as an anti-social hermit of sorts. Like a smeagol in middle earth!

    However, the drive that results in this behaviour is inherently social, as it attempts to question and improve on broadly accepted norms, instead of blindly following them. In order to better society for each and every one of us!

    So one could say, the INTP's are the pioneers of future society, today! (Slightly sugar coated it there. I tinny bit. >.> )

    So INTP's are in fact very social creatures. Argueably even more so then some other types who are considered social by the current norm!

    Discuss. xD
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #2
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    I would surmise that Fe (organization of one's social environment) is an INTP's inferior function. So INTPs tend to be paranoid about using Fe. So instead they use Ti (their dominant function) to handle social matters. It's not a bad substitution, in that Ti and Fe are both organizing/J functions. But since INTPs are paranoid of Fe and all things social, they generally tend to use their Ti to minimize their social contacts. It's like INFPs using Fi to carry out Te functions. Fi and Te are both organizing/J functions, but organizing one's physical environment according to emotional gut instincts probably isn't going to be the best of plans.

    In short, it would probably better if INTPs were to simply bite the bullet, get over their paranoias, and learn to practice Fe by the numbers: Study rules of proper socializing, get used to doing the standard courtesies, learn when to say yes vs. when (and how) to say no when asked to do something, etc. Similarly, INFPs would find life a lot easier if they would get over their paranoias and learn to practice Te by the numbers: Set up filing systems, organize projects with outlines or flow charts or whatever, schedule their days properly and stick to the schedule, etc.

  3. #3
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    However, the drive that results in this behaviour is inherently social, as it attempts to question and improve on broadly accepted norms, instead of blindly following them. In order to better society for each and every one of us!
    Well, no. INTs are not altruists, they're doing it for themselves, mostly because they find other options too hard to implement. It is a lot more convenient to mask themselves as pioneers of society instead of intelligent yet socially awkward creatures.
    They are experts in creating systems, so they construct their own narrative based on such delusions of grandeur, and force every unfamiliar experience to match with the initial premise of them being an innovator and a victim of human simple-mindedness. This further alienates them from society.

  4. #4
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    So INTP's are in fact very social creatures. Argueably even more so then some other types who are considered social by the current norm!
    You're just twisting definitions.

    Alceste likes to point out everybody's mistakes, while telling them how pathetic they are and how much they suck. He does this pretty often.
    Pointing out mistakes requires social interaction.
    So Alceste is the most social person in town.

  5. #5
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Well, no. INTs are not altruists, they're doing it for themselves, mostly because they find other options too hard to implement. It is a lot more convenient to mask themselves as pioneers of society instead of intelligent yet socially awkward creatures.
    They are experts in creating systems, so they construct their own narrative based on such delusions of grandeur, and force every unfamiliar experience to match with the initial premise of them being an innovator and a victim of human simple-mindedness. This further alienates them from society.
    Just on a side note first, but not really related to what I am going to say, I'm not doing it just for myself, I tend to do the same for people I care about (not always with success but that's another story!).

    But that aside, you do bring up some interesting points, and I can agree to most of your points in themselves. However, you are wrong in the assumption that it is more convenient for us to paint ourselves as pioneers, rather than socially awkward creatures. I like being alone and tend to shy away from any and all attention that I do not find neccesary. Being a socially awkward creature in the eyes of other people gives me all the freedom I need to be the person I want to be.

    So let me take away the sugarcoating from my above post and say that we may -indirectly- be responsible for raising questions that could benefit the whole of society, by being the hermit people we are. To which our drive to push away from the norm is a key factor in realizing this change. Which is a slightly better way of putting the thoughts I had to words. :>

    As an example, I give you this hypothetical situation:

    It is a certain guys birthday party today, his name is first guy, at his party there is another guy named second guy who asks the first guy if a certain known INTP will also come to the party. The first guy says: "No, he never comes to visit anyways and said he didn't feel like coming just because it's my birthday party.". To which the other guy replies: "Right, such an asocial crapheap, never liked him anyway.". "Aye." the first guy says, "He really takes the piss.". After a brief pause, the other guy responds: "You know, he does have a point though. Only coming on someones birthday but never any other day makes you wonder about how loyal those people really are to you, so why just not come at all.". "Well, it's proper habit to celebrate someone's birthday no?", the first one claims, "and besides, you only ever see me on my birthday.". "Yeah, but I like parties.". "So you like my party, but you don't like me?". "Pretty much, I'm thirsty.". "Fine, want a beer?". "Sure, thanks mate.". "So how's the wife and kids?". "Great! My wife is really fitting in her new job and my son is getting straight aces in school, I'm so proud!". "Awesome!". "What about your deal with that large contract you were working on?". "Nah, did not quite pan out, I am working on something bigger right now!"....

    ...One year later...

    "Hey first guy, isn't second guy coming?", "Nah mate, I didn't come on his birthday either." "Why not?" "Dude just drinks my beer mate.". "I just drink your beer?". "Yeah but you drink my bear at least fifteen times a year, not just the one time.". "Yeah... That makes perfect sense...".

    And thus, indirectly, the INTP is breaking up peoples bad habits of celebrating each other birthdays for the sole reason of partying and drinking their beer.

    This can only be a good thing, no?

    For a better future, become a socially awkward hermit today. :>

    Anyhow, bottomline is that our descisions are not made solely based on what we feel is easiest or most effecient for us. But also largely to what we feel is right for us, and others. And showing up only at someones birthday but never any other day, would make us feel like hipocrits and leechers. So we'd rather not go at all. Not becuase it's easier to not go. But because it is impossible to go with a smile on our faces.

    Disclaimer: Used birthday example is a highly subjective and biased situation that may not be true to all INTP's, but as a hypothetical example, there are no doubt similar situations for every INTP out there that deals with the same core issue.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #6
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Yeah, sorry Fluffy, but this is like the ontological proof of INTP sociability. Not buying it.



  7. #7
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    You're just twisting definitions.

    Alceste likes to point out everybody's mistakes, while telling them how pathetic they are and how much they suck. He does this pretty often.
    Pointing out mistakes requires social interaction.
    So Alceste is the most social person in town.
    Oh no no no.

    I was pointing out more towards truth and underlying meaning to peoples actions, without showing tact or modesty. When argueably, tact and modesty, although widely accepted as good social norms, might not improve a persons situation as much as truth and underlying meaning might do. So in the larger scheme or prosperity, a little INTP bluntness, can go a long way. Indirectly creating a more livable environment. Hypothetically!

    I mean there's also potential cases such an approach could backfire ofcourse. But then it's all about weighing both sides of the scale and see which one tips over. Thus, it is argueable better, but not better per se.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #8
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    Its fascinating how little people really know about INTPs considering the sheer amount of threads on the subject here.

    This is not meant as "INTPs are the crop of the earth" I'll leave the gloating of ones type to the other NT types. They seem to be much better at that

    I do however not completely agree with the OP. Eventhough I may do as described, its not a extreme as in the OP when it comes to real life behavior. I am more likely to act according to some social dynamic I may not agree completely on so I can keep in touch with the people I care for, than to discard the social interaction and eventually lose the friends I care for.

    The problem with social change is that if you sit in your own little utopia and dont engage the people around you in those changes you see neccesary you gain very little in the sense of accomplishment and debate. I would say that what an INTPs greatests strenghts is, is being a catalyst for change through debate and by accomplishing that change.

    Being a hermit will not get you very far and the utopia you have created will die with you.

    About being a hermit or anti social, when I withdraw from people I do so, not because of peoples behaviors etc, but because I choose to. Even as much other people can be part of why I choose as I do, it is ME that do so out of free will, I dont blame others what is my own doing.

    What I mean is either you are passive or are you proactive. Eventhough the stereotype is INTPs are passive, its far from the life experience I have. Im far more proactive than people I meet.

  9. #9
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Its fascinating how little people really know about INTPs considering the sheer amount of threads on the subject here.
    Very interesting points and I find myself in a lot of your words as many situations are concerned. But I was more aiming at the fact that being passive, may also indirectly cause pro-active change. Instead of being pro-active from the get go.

    I think we are very sociable creatures, with a keen sense on how to find the environment that suits our needs and the needs of the people around us. And that sense is not limited to being proactive, but extends into our passive, anti-socialistic, behaviour. When we show a retreat, why do we retreat? What are the reasons for our retreat? What are we trying to avoid and what are we trying to gain? I think all INTP's have a pretty good grasp of the answers to those questions, and more often than not, they are directly grounded on social reasons.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  10. #10
    Senior Member Greta's Avatar
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    Anti-social = passive?

    The reason a lot of these arguments don't get off the ground is the loose equation of terms that are, at best, merely related. To say nothing of the wrong terms being used in the first place. Asocial (what I think you mean) is not the same as anti-social. And being asocial is not the same as being passive with respect to social involvement. Further, I doubt INTPs who actively shun needless and tiresome social involvement intend to be or see themselves as any sort of pioneers. As much as INTPs may question social norms and reject what they find useless or stupid, any drive to influence anyone to adopt the INTP's views and attitudes seems rather un-INTP.
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