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  1. #11
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I suppose the difference is that anti-social behaviour has the intention to be so, whereas a-social behaviour may unintendedly lead to anti-social behaviour. So in that sense, yeah, I do mean asocial behaviour. Little language barrier I suppose. In dutch there isn't any actual difference between 'antisociaal' and 'asociaal' and 'asociaal' is widely used as a negative term to people who are not social, arrogant and stuck up.

    I'm mostly Ne-ing in this topic and have failed to give any substantial evidence to back up my claims, this I am aware of and my sincere apologies for that, I will make it up below with something I noticed in my work relationship with my brother over the course of 10 years. That aside, I do feel I am on to something. On self-reflecting and reflecting back, I believe INTP's have a stronger social position than what might be apparant to the masses. And our behaviour that is seen as "asocial" more often than not, have very social reasons and intentions backing them up in the mind of the INTP. The drive that makes us the people we are, are based on a certain mindset that for all intents and purposes are to create a better social environment, firstly for ourselves, and secondly for the people around us.

    any drive to influence anyone to adopt the INTP's views and attitudes seems rather un-INTP.
    I think you've misunderstood me on that part though. I never said or intended to say that the INTP attempts to influence others by showing 'asocial' behaviour into their own patterns, but rather influence them indirectly to by raising questions and creating conflicts where the norm sees no problem. See it is causing people to think outside of the box. To look at something at an angle they may not previously have thought off. And through that influence, people create a better understanding by themselves, not neccesarily the understanding the INTP has, or not even remotely close to the understanding the INTP has. Since behaviour, society and 'the norm' are all highly biased idealogies, that differ from person to person, there really isn't a way one could say that is the right way and that is the wrong way. What may be right for some, might be wrong for others and vice versa. But the INTP's behaviour leads to a different level of thinking, and thus creates an elevation of social norms.

    I could try to explain using an example from my real life. I work closely together with my brother, both running different parts of the company. Both have our own skillsets and both have our own duties for the most part. But sometimes we do ofcourse end up working at the same thing. I am INTP and my brother is ENTP. My brother, like me, is all for effeciency, not doing anything that doesn't need to be done, playing with deadlines, and seeing plenty of ways to minimize effort in order to get things done. This isn't a bad thing for us because it does leave us with plenty of time focusing on new development, which is a good thing being entrepeneurs. But when our work coincides, especially if what we need to do is something menial, like washing and preparing a bus (coach) in the middle of the night just after it returned because it has to go to another customer in 3 hours or so. Our way of thinking clashes. My brother will move and act in such accordance, that at every turn on the way, I end up doing just a little more than him. If five tables have to be put in the coach, he will wait for me to pick up the first, so he takes the second, me the third, he the fourth, me the fifth, etc. Things like that, many times a day, every day, with anything you can name. Now I used to address him on it in the beginning (quite socially to the norm!), since he always does it, every single time, and it started to frustrate me. And most of the time, we'd end up having some silly discussion about semantics and end up wasting even more time, not getting much work done at all as a result.

    Many years ago (Probably like 8 years ago now), I chose to ignore the subject alltogether and just completely avoid all conflict, I figured I'd bite through his many little schemes and get on with it, because we started to get too much friction between us and my brother isn't very stress resistant, facing a burn out and I feared for further decline and the situation escalating into something much worse (There was a lot of work stress as well at the time, and everything just seemed to start and add up.). So I entered my little INTP shell of avoidance. Trying to keep the work pace up, and be done with things. No arguements and no more conflicts with my brother.

    Oddly, and this happened fairly quickly after I started to ignore his frustrating behaviour, keeping the work pace up. He started to go with the flow of the pace himself, and his little schemes of super effeciency died down and became nothing more than the draw of the luck. Odd, I thought! But hey, I'm cool with it, things were looking up and much less frustration seeped out of either one of us. Ever since then, my work relationship with my brother has been extremely stale, but at the same time, much more effecient and stress free. Where we were first clashing against each other, not getting into the flow of work at all, being all P vs P. We no longer have any issues with this. I just take the lead, let him do whatever he does, and do whatever I do, and work just gets done. I never asked him about this change, and don't intend to. But it must have been a conscious change on his side as well.

    Now I am wondering. What is social behaviour, if not behaviour that improves a social environment? Even though that behaviour may seem typically asocial. And what makes it hard to grasp, that an INTP's assumed asocial behaviour, may be a means to better a social environment. And that it is our way of being social?
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    @ the OP: Now that there has been some discussion, I think I understand better what you mean. I agree that it is unlikely that an INTP will push others to adopt their views. More than that, however, I think even the questioning is not directed toward that purpose. I do not see the INTP acting with the intention of improving society, or even the individual lives around them, though that may sometimes be the result. The INTP rather seems to question and to act (e.g. not attend the party) in response to a need to maintain their own internal logical consistency. When confronted by something that does not make sense, especially something they themselves are being expected to do, they will question it, or outright balk. The benefit, as you suggest, comes when others witness the INTP response, stop taking the situation for granted and actually think about it for a change, and perhaps realize that they can depart from the norm as well.

    My SO of > 10 years is INTP, and I can tell you he is much like this. Both of us act and respond based upon what makes sense, regardless of convention or others' expectations. We realize in doing so that we often set an example for others around us, and sometimes can even see the influence this example has. I am more likely to ask the pointed, uncomfortable questions with the deliberate intent of forcing others to think, and to push "my views" on someone, but usually only a close friend, when I think it really is in their best interests. All that is probably just indicative of our J/P differences, though.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #13
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Hypothesis: The INTP's drive towards anti-socialization, is one of the INTP's strongest social behaviours.

    An INTP does not easily inherit the norms, customs and ideologies of their peers. They have an inherit need to deviate from those and create their own norms, customs and ideologies. This behaviour is almost constantly present within the INTP. As a result of this behaviour, the INTP differentiates itself from the social norm and is often seen as an anti-social hermit of sorts.
    However, the drive that results in this behaviour is inherently social, as it attempts to question and improve on broadly accepted norms, instead of blindly following them. In order to better society for each and every one of us!
    I'm not sure about this, as some INTPs may just not like to socialize as much because they don't like it/see any use in it.....then the improving of society by challenging these norms is in some cases unintentional, not a revolutionary measure.

    But for those who do actually do it for revolution, I see your point.

    I think the drive towards being 'anti-social' can be social in another way though, as those who do not fit into the norms of society at large tend to want to find other people who also do not fit in. This forum is my proof of this

  4. #14
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    I'm not sure about this, as some INTPs may just not like to socialize as much because they don't like it/see any use in it.....then the improving of society by challenging these norms is in some cases unintentional, not a revolutionary measure.

    But for those who do actually do it for revolution, I see your point.

    I think the drive towards being 'anti-social' can be social in another way though, as those who do not fit into the norms of society at large tend to want to find other people who also do not fit in. This forum is my proof of this
    Actually, my first post wasn't worded properly, I got carried away a little, I sometimes do that. The thinking it is a revolution part was me going all like "eureka, my behaviour does lead to social improvements!" Whilest the actual actions that lead to social improvements, were indirect and not as conscious. So I was getting ahead of myself.

    To clarify, thinking back on my INTP like asocial behaviour patterns in many situations, I did not see them as social behaviours at the time, even though they were consciously based on finding the best solution to a problem for me as well as all parties involved in the situation. And now, in hindsight, I am like "Hey, it is a kind of social behaviour! Because my reasons and intentions were to improve the social environment and solve social issues. Even though my behaviour would be seen as typically asocial, in the sense that INTP's do it.". And it wasn't until after that realization that I got all revolutionary on your asses. Rawr *wink*.

    There's many points one could extract from this topic, but I think the point I was trying to get accross was giving insight to how INTP's social behaviour works in many situations, and that our typical asocial behaviour, is not in all cases as asocial as one might think, unhealthy INTP's aside.

    PS: Five stars? Oh gosh you flatter me so, my secret admirer. <3
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #15

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    When I'm not behaving on my most social way, people just give me weird looks, really xD

    I think you have to be very intelligent to reflect on yourself like you portrayed in your first post. Most people don't do that. They just feel awkward because someone doesn't care for the little rules society (unconsciously) made up. I sometimes even sense that people are getting scared of me because of my... somewhat peculiar way of acting. My mothers boyfriend (hardcore ESFJ) really had to get used to me. I like verbal sparring with my boyfriend and his father. Trying to outwit each other. She get's very uncomfortable with my bluntness and says things like: "oh she doesn't really mean that" or "well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion" (when he says mine is stupid).

    She really gets on my nerves, needless to say

  6. #16
    Junior Member quidtimeam's Avatar
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    It's not a question of being social or anti-social as such, but the type of sociability. I can be extremely social when I feel comfortable that I will be around people that will listen to and understand my ideas, but completely asocial around most other people. Inferior Fe cares very simply and directly, and highly complicated social events like loud parties with lots of strangers overload me, but a night of conversation with good friends or intimate companions I can focus on without much distraction is very appealing.
    There is a fundamental conviction which some people never acquire, some hold only in their youth, and a few hold to the end of their days--the conviction that ideas matter.The nature of this conviction? That ideas matter means that knowledge matters, that truth matters, that one’s mind matters. And the radiance of that certainty, in the process of growing up, is the best aspect of youth.
    -Ayn Rand

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