[NT] Consciously Changing From INTP to ENTJ?

[Eleventhpin]

Hello everyone,

I'm relatively new to typology, although I've been aware of it for many years. I was introduced to the four temperaments when I was in middle school, and found them fascinating. Reading through descriptions of the various types, I identified strongly with characteristics of the INTP. I took an online quiz at the time and was scored as an INTP.

Since then, I've re-tested myself at least once a year and have always gotten INTP. I've never taken an official test, but I'm very confident of my results. There is nothing in the description of an INTP that I don't recognize wthin myself.

What I'd like to ask the community is, can a person consciously change his or her type -- permanently? I'm currently attending university, and after graduation I intend to pursue a military career, ideally with a commission. I realize that there are many incongruencies between my personality type and my chosen career. I don't think that a prototypical INTP like me would make a capable leader in an infantry unit, or as commander of a larger group of men. I am serious about my future in the military, and I want to have a highly successful career with many opportunities after it's over. I don't feel that I'd be able to do that with my tendency to prolong indecision and to over-analyze situations. Being introverted doesn't help either.

I believe that the qualities possessed by ENTJs are ideal for military leaders, and I want to integrate as many of them as I can into my own personality. Moreover, I deeply admire the positive traits of ENTJs, and I'd like to see more of them present in myself, regardless of my career choice. I think ENTJs -- in general -- are most adept at directly dealing with the external world.

Is there any process for achieving this? Does the relationship between INTP and ENTJ bear any significance to such a change? It would seem that modeling my behavior after ENTJs would have the desired effect, but my intuition tells me that this won't work by its lonesome.

I'm eager to read your thoughts on this. Thank you.

 

[INTP]

cba to read because you dont change type. INTP might learn how to naturally act like an ENTJ and therefore think that he changed type, even tho he just learned new ways to act in situations.

 

[INTPness]

The bad news:
*INTP really is not a good fit for the military (been there, done that - could not have FATHOMED doing 20+ years), but that does not mean that you personally could not be a success in that environment - don't let anyone tell you that you can't do something. This was just my personal experience.
*Military doesn't allow for much "I" or "P". Those individuals tend to run into problems in the military. Even ESTP's/ISTP's - they want to goof off and have fun, but that's not really what the military is about. If you want to have fun, the military probably isn't the best place to do that. It's about results, "getting stuff done" - NOW!!! It's ESTJ all the way in the enlisted ranks. Officer ranks = xNTJ. But, again, that doesn't mean that you can't be successful. I'm just laying out the facts.

The good news:
*Just because you're INTP does not mean you are not cut out for leadership. The NT mindset is very well-suited to leadership because it sees the big picture, it has vision, and your logical thinking helps you to see what is "wrong" with a siutation", what needs to be fixed/improved, what could be done better/more efficiently, etc. "I" and "P" as you mention, can be problems in a leadership role, if you let them. There's nothing wrong with a reserved leader (I), so long as he leads by example, cares about the good of his people, and has a vision worth following. P gives you creativity and the ability to think on your feet, but you have to harness the tendency to procrastinate and not get back to people. It's OK to march to the beat of your own drum a little bit (go ahead and give yourself that freedom), but you have to stay organized. If you're just a complete "soup sandwich" (actual military speak, there) and completely unorganized, you'll stand out like a soar thumb in the military and in corporate leadership as well. Don't get rid of your P, but learn to harness it.

*I agree that ENTJ fits this role the best. But, you really aren't that far away from ENTJ. It just takes some minor tweaks to be honest. You don't want to change who you are (cuz it will make you miserable over the long haul - that's the hard part about a 20 year career - you'll have to make these 'tweaks' in your personality every single day and you can start to feel like you're losing a big part of yourself). But, I tweak myself into an ENTJ in many instances. I was just in a meeting this morning and my time was being wasted. They called a meeting - 1.5 hours - and it was total garbage. So, I said that I wouldn't be attending any more meetings unless we were actually going to accomplish something/learn something and I left early. Others followed me out. The meeting broke up when I left, which shows me that others agreed with what I was saying. The tweak here is that you have to learn and be willing to sort of "impose your will" in certain situations. My natural personality (INTP) would just sit through the meeting and not say anything and be extremely frustrated - because I want to be polite and don't want to make any waves. But, if you learn to give your Ti a voice - when you have a "thought", speak it! Say it! Go ahead and be blunt, but of course use tact and be professional. That's really all it takes for me to "sort of seem like an ENTJ". It's not that hard, really, you just have to ignore Fe a little bit. Cuz Fe doesn't want to offend anybody. Ti (when voiced) doesn't care about offending - it just wants to be efficient. The thought process between an ENTJ and an INTP isn't THAT different - it can actually be quite similar logically speaking - difference is they speak it/demand it, while we tend to stay quiet.

You can totally do it in the military if you're willing to endure this stuff. It's not easy, I can tell you that (military life). When they say jump, you literally have to say "how high?" For 20 years. But, I'm a firm believer that we can do whatever we wish to do in life.

 

[rav3n]

Te/Ni and Ti/Ne are different beasts. While it's possible for everyone to use either, using the combination that's not your natural preference all the time, can be exhausting.

I'd focus less on attempting to change your type and focus more on how to naturally apply what you're good at, bringing out Te/Ni once in awhile for practice.

 

[INTPness]

Te/Ni and Ti/Ne are different beasts. While it's possible for everyone to use either, using the combination that's not your natural preference all the time, can be exhausting.

I'd focus less on attempting to change your type and focus more on how to naturally apply what you're good at, bringing out Te/Ni once in awhile for practice.

I agree with this. If an INTP isn't willing to make "tweaks" in his personality (because it's exhausting), then a military career is not ideal. INTP is not the best type for the military, by a long shot.

If you want it SO BAD that you're willing to make tweaks every single day, then go for it.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Being an INTP in a leadership position, I can tell you that trying to be more ENTJ is not going to work for you.

When things need to get done, and I need to ignore my Pness, I have this J-cloak myself in which I can just sit down, and do what needs to be done, and be done with it. It's just a cloak though, and it wears me out if I expose myself to that longer than a few hours a day.

Can an INTP lead? Sure we can, especially when it is inline with our interests! We have the ability to see what needs to be done and what parts the people below us should do. But we don't lead the way an ENTJ would. We'd be better of staying as true to ourselves as possible, for that doesn't deplete us of our will to proceed.

As far as military goes. I was glad that I didn't have to enlist, because quite frankly, I know I'd hate it. I just don't like being told what to do when it's not for real. Training excersises and such, I can understand being physically fit and all, but I'd fall out of the boat with so many other excersises that they'd probably boot me from the military because of my ineptness to properly follow command. However, in a real situation, I doubt I'd have that problem, but I know I can't be arsed with all the stuff around it.. I suppose that's just how my mind works. I'm too concerned with the most effecient way I spend my time. And I know for a fact that will not be in line with what the military could offer me.

 

[INTPness]

Fluffywolf kind of mentioned it in his last paragraph, but another issue in the military for P's is that you will find yourself wanting to "push the envelope" and to sort of rebel and break the rules a little bit. I never got in trouble during my time in the military - I behaved myself. Other than one time that I did something really stupid and got caught, but my supervisor handled it very well - he could have easily handed me my own arse on a silver platter had he wanted to. But, as an example, your hair cannot touch your ears and you have to be clean shaven every single morning. This is just one small, stupid example, but I had to shave every single morning for 3.5 years straight. Yeah, no big deal you may say, but you know what? As a P, sometimes I just don't feel like shaving. I might shave once every 3 days now. I like to get ready in the morning - the way I want to get ready - not the way that someone else tells me to get ready. During my last 6 months, I so badly wanted "out of the box" that I had been stuck in for 3.5 years. I started shaving every other day and sometimes people would start to see that I had a little bit of a 5 o'clock shadow going and they'd get all hot and bothered. There's just not a lot of room for individuality at all. But, I played the game for 4 years - and I did well to boot.

A lot of the SP's did that too. They'd always get in trouble cuz they were constantly "stretching the rules", seeing what they could get away with. The SJ's had no problems, by and large.

Some other points:
*"Ne" is, by and large, useless in the military. Might as well just leave it at home when you leave the house in the morning. Let your dog play with it and chew on it until you get home that night.
*Lots of politics in terms of getting promoted. The first 2-4 years, promotions are pretty much "automatic" (built-in) as long as you don't screw up. But, after that, it depends a lot on your performance evaluation, which is based on quotas. In my branch, only so many people can get "outstanding" (I think 20% of your peer competition), another 30% can get "excellent", and the remaining 50% gets "satisfactory" or, in rare cases "unsatisfactory". This happens even if everyone is outstanding or everyone is excellent. So, you guessed it, the guys who get "oustanding" are the ones who are friends with the boss, who go to all of the extracurricular events, who go out for drinks after work, etc. I never ran into this problem as I only needed an "outstanding" 1 time for promotion (the other times were fairly automatic) - and I got it. But, I could see very clearly that in future years, I would need to start schmoozing if I wanted to move up the chain. I didn't want any part of it.

 

[rav3n]

Wouldn't Ti/Ne be suited for sourcing out military intelligence or code breaking?

 

[Thalassa]

No, you can't change your type consciously. You however can develop shadow traits or over-emphasize your tertiary, making you appear slightly like another type.

I'll never not be an NFP, but in specific situations I can mimic an FJ, or be even more convincingly STJ, but it's very stressful and tiring to try to be your shadow type, or to live in your tertiary/inferior functions.

Happy healthy people function, over all, better when they try to make the best of their natural type. That's not to say you can't tap into those latent strengths, but trying to live in them permanently sounds like a horrible exercise in fail.

 

[INTPness]

Wouldn't Ti/Ne be suited for sourcing out military intelligence or code breaking?

Before I posted "Ne is useless in the military", I *almost* said "with the exception of working in the intelligence field". Certainly it could be applicable there. That would probably be the best fit as an officer. But, you're still in a Te environment, a Te organization, and you'll be doing the 8-to-5 thing and following all the protocols, rules, and regs. If one really wanted to unleash Ti/Ne, it'd be much better to own a business, get into some form of entrepreneurship. That way you could unleash Ne and get creative with stuff while analyzing and fine-tuning with Ti. No matter what you do in the military, you are owned by "the man". That just isn't ideal for NP's, IME.

On the enlisted side (or officer as well) of the Navy, the best fit would be the "nukes" - the guys who work on the bottom decks of aircraft carriers on the nuclear reactors/generators. I knew an INTP who went this route and the ones I knew on the ship all seemed like NTP's. This little "nuke community" on the ship really seemed to have their own thing going on. Nobody talked to them and they didn't talk to anyone else. You'd see them in the food line and they'd just stare at you. They were completely pale cuz they hadn't seen sunlight in months. Had their own area of the ship, their own little world. Some nuke links:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=211672
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Power_School

 

[rav3n]

Before I posted "Ne is useless in the military", I *almost* said "with the exception of working in the intelligence field". Certainly it could be applicable there. That would probably be the best fit as an officer. But, you're still in a Te environment, a Te organization, and you'll be doing the 8-to-5 thing and following all the protocols, rules, and regs. If one really wanted to unleash Ti/Ne, it'd be much better to own a business, get into some form of entrepreneurship. That way you could unleash Ne and get creative with stuff while analyzing and fine-tuning with Ti. No matter what you do in the military, you are owned by "the man". That just isn't ideal for NP's, IME.

To add to this, maybe a form of partnership with another type who's more determined to put plan to action. While INTPs can do, it's not their strength so why not be the ideas man behind the scenes and let someone else front, with the more social aspects of schmoozing and putting plan to action.

On the enlisted side (or officer as well) of the Navy, the best fit would be the "nukes" - the guys who work on the bottom decks of aircraft carriers on the nuclear reactors/generators. I knew an INTP who went this route and the ones I knew on the ship all seemed like NTP's. This little "nuke community" on the ship really seemed to have their own thing going on. Nobody talked to them and they didn't talk to anyone else. You'd see them in the food line and they'd just stare at you. They were completely pale cuz they hadn't seen sunlight in months. Had their own area of the ship, their own little world. Some nuke links:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=211672
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Power_School

Hope you're not offended but this kind of makes me giggle since it aligns with the INTP stereotype of lurking in dark places and doing the Fe thing of clumping with their kind.

 

[INTPness]

To add to this, maybe a form of partnership with another type who's more determined to put plan to action. While INTPs can do, it's not their strength so why not be the ideas man behind the scenes and let someone else front, with the more social aspects of schmoozing and putting plan to action.

The idea of that is a beautiful, wonderful thing. I'm sure it's something every INTP has given thought to. Having a front man to implement their ideas. You really have to be able to trust that person if they're going to be the one talking to other people and making connections, otherwise they could really undermine the operation, or even break off and form their own outfit, taking all the customers with them.

Hope you're not offended but this kind of makes me giggle since it aligns with the INTP stereotype of lurking in dark places and doing the Fe thing of clumping with their kind.

No, these guys were so typical of the stereotype it was scary. I would see them and I would think, "I really should be working with those guys" (cuz I hated what I did and I knew that I was capable of doing what they did; plus I knew they were "my kind" ), but I really didn't envy them at all. I wouldn't want to spend an entire 6-month cruise locked in with a bunch of INTP's. Thanks, but no thanks. Give me E's and S's, and J's and F's...at least it provides some variety.

You could always tell which ones they were in the food line too. The jet mechanics would have grease all over shirts/hands, the flight deck workers would all be sunburned or really tan from working outdoors all day, and then you'd see a group of nukes standing in line - totally pale and reading a Spiderman comicbook.

 

[Eleventhpin]

Thanks everyone for your insights. The impression I've gotten is that a person's type is much more natural than learned. That's unfortunate to read, but not altogether surprising. Nonetheless, I'll try to develop as many ENTJ functions as I can within the context of my own personality. I still have four semesters of schooling before I graduate; I hope to make some significant progress in that time.

 

[INTPness]

Thanks everyone for your insights. The impression I've gotten is that a person's type is much more natural than learned. That's unfortunate to read, but not altogether surprising. Nonetheless, I'll try to develop as many ENTJ functions as I can within the context of my own personality. I still have four semesters of schooling before I graduate; I hope to make some significant progress in that time.

That's so frustrating to read. Why is it "unfortunate" that you're INTP? Embrace who you are and be the best that you can be. That's the only time you'll feel "at home" with who you are - comfortable in your own skin. It's not a curse to be INTP.

Also, didn't realize you're in Tokyo. Maybe the military is different there. A lot of my stories may not be applicable to you.

 

[Curator]

INTP's are awesome O.O

 

[slowriot]

To add to this, maybe a form of partnership with another type who's more determined to put plan to action. While INTPs can do, it's not their strength so why not be the ideas man behind the scenes and let someone else front, with the more social aspects of schmoozing and putting plan to action.

Hope you're not offended but this kind of makes me giggle since it aligns with the INTP stereotype of lurking in dark places and doing the Fe thing of clumping with their kind.

As much I would want to be the behind the scenes man, I also have gotten to understand that it is also the best way to lead people as an INTP. There are many different leader roles eventhough it seems in the military theres not an openness to more than one leader role.

Ive been the one my bosses go to when there where issues regarding project completions and so on, the one my coworkers went to for professional support and mentoring, even after only being there for three months. Ive been the spokesperson for my coworkers more than the other way around. I may not have had the title but Ive always been in some kind of position where people looked to me for leadership, also beyond the working enviroment. I have found that taking on a role of leadership is not difficult or uncomfortable for me I thrive under it actually. Am I you typical general stereotype? No, but I could be one when that is needed.

Yes some INTPs can be quite like described in the quote. But I think any introverted type would be able to be as described in the quote. Behavior does not mean you are a specific personality type. But I think most people are aware of that on this forum.

 

[rav3n]

As much I would want to be the behind the scenes man, I also have gotten to understand that it is also the best way to lead people as an INTP. There are many different leader roles eventhough it seems in the military theres not an openness to more than one leader role.

Ive been the one my bosses go to when there where issues regarding project completions and so on, the one my coworkers went to for professional support and mentoring, even after only being there for three months. Ive been the spokesperson for my coworkers more than the other way around. I may not have had the title but Ive always been in some kind of position where people looked to me for leadership, also beyond the working enviroment. I have found that taking on a role of leadership is not difficult or uncomfortable for me I thrive under it actually. Am I you typical general stereotype? No, but I could be one when that is needed.

Yes some INTPs can be quite like described in the quote. But I think any introverted type would be able to be as described in the quote. Behavior does not mean you are a specific personality type. But I think most people are aware of that on this forum.

Ever been bombarded by demands to decision-make on the fly with much at stake, riding on your decisions? When I say bombarded, let's use the set number of say 35 at any given time where for every 35 decisions you make, more comes down the pike. Bluntly speaking, this type of environment wouldn't be a comfortable situation for any deep thinker.

Having said that, it doesn't mean that INTPs aren't capable of leadership. In slower environments where INTPs can play to their strengths of having the luxury of time to consider decisions by examining all aspects, I can see an INTP flourishing in a "lead by example" leadership role. That is, the type of INTP who's not on the extreme end of introversion, where social contact is viewed as an irritant.

 

[Fluffywolf]

My way of leading hasn't got to do without much social contact at all. But rather emitting professional, yet relaxed and easy going signals to my employees. I sometimes compare myself with being a bit of a string puppeteer. Steering and guiding people towards their goals one string at a time, leaving them to initiate the rest by themselves.

In our company there is a very homely and relaxed attitude, and our recruitment rate is very low for a mostly part time work environment. People just stick around and like it here. Which is unseen at pretty much all other companies in our market. And because of it, we have profited from a lot of customers sticking with our companies because of the people we have working here.

So I agree, that there are many more ways to lead, and an INTP is perfectly capable of being in a leadership position. (Actually it may even be prefered, because I've never done very well with people leading me. >.> )

But aye, as far as the military goes. My personal style of how I lead this company, is not something you would see happening in a military unit.

 

[INTPness]

Ever been bombarded by demands to decision-make on the fly with much at stake, riding on your decisions? When I say bombarded, let's use the set number of say 35 at any given time where for every 35 decisions you make, more comes down the pike. Bluntly speaking, this type of environment wouldn't be a comfortable situation for any deep thinker.

Having said that, it doesn't mean that INTPs aren't capable of leadership. In slower environments where INTPs can play to their strengths of having the luxury of time to consider decisions by examining all aspects, I can see an INTP flourishing in a "lead by example" leadership role. That is, the type of INTP who's not on the extreme end of introversion, where social contact is viewed as an irritant.

Yeah, I relate to this quite a bit. Your example of 35 rapid-fire decisions - I hate to say it, but situations like that sometimes make me think, "I need an ExTJ! Quick, where's my ExTJ!" I really do much better when I can think things through, map them out, mull them over in my head, sleep on them, etc. I have to let things "saturate" a bit.

An example was yesterday when I went to a "fair" where vendors are there talking about what they can do for you. Financial advisors, bankers (home buying, loans), etc. I went up to one financial advisor and he gives me his "speech" about what he can do for me, etc. I said, "I'm interested in investing more, but the time isn't now. Can I get your card so that when that time comes, I can call you?" He said, "Nobody who takes my card ever ends up calling me. They always say 'I'll invest more next year or at some later date', but that later date never comes. If you want to invest more, I suggest that you do it now."

That, to me, feels like a form of pressure. I cannot (and will not) make that decision "on the spot". I haven't given it enough thought yet. I need more time. A lot of J's are able to say, "OK, yeah, sign me up. I'll put an extra $300/month into my investment portfolio." It's hard for me to react quickly like that because I often end up regretting my decision. I can only reach "the best decision" when I've had time to mull it over in my brain. Anyone who tries to pressure me for a quick decision: :banned:

 

[INTPness]

My way of leading hasn't got to do without much social contact at all. But rather emitting professional, yet relaxed and easy going signals to my employees. I sometimes compare myself with being a bit of a string puppeteer. Steering and guiding people towards their goals one string at a time, leaving them to initiate the rest by themselves.

In our company there is a very homely and relaxed attitude, and our recruitment rate is very low for a mostly part time work environment. People just stick around and like it here. Which is unseen at pretty much all other companies in our market. And because of it, we have profited from a lot of customers sticking with our companies because of the people we have working here.

So I agree, that there are many more ways to lead, and an INTP is perfectly capable of being in a leadership position. (Actually it may even be prefered, because I've never done very well with people leading me. >.> )

But aye, as far as the military goes. My personal style of how I lead this company, is not something you would see happening in a military unit.

I relate to much of this as well. Guide them in the right direction by helping them to see the overall mission and the direction we are going in, but much of the implementation has to be left to them. I need you to have a certain level of competence, cuz I don't have time to babysit. I can help you, provide training, be a mentor, you can come to me with your issues, open door policy, etc, but please don't be a 4-year old. Be competent.