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[NT] NT Spirituality

Pick one:

  • NTP - spiritual and religious

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • NTP - spiritual but not religious

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • NTP - a little spiritual but not seriously so

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • NTP - not spiritual at all

    Votes: 13 32.5%
  • NTP - Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • NTJ - spiritual and religous

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • NTJ - spiritual but not religious

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • NTJ - a little spiritual but not seriously so

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • NTJ - not spiritual at all

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • NTJ - Other

    Votes: 1 2.5%
  • NT - I don't want to pick one but I'll pick this one anyway

    Votes: 1 2.5%
  • I'm not NT and wanted to pick something

    Votes: 4 10.0%

  • Total voters
    40

lunalum

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Because I was curious, and didn't find a similar thread right away. If one is found sufficient to replace this one, let me know :)

For the purposes of this thread:

-Spiritual-
1: of, or relating to, supernatural beings or phenomena

What degree is NT spirituality different from the other types, if at all?

Are NTs really less spirtual than NFs? How much effect does the T have in affirming or rejecting the supernatural? Do spiritual NTs differ in their approach to the unknown and the value of such?

(I'll start with only those questions and talk about it more later, as to not skew my poll from the beginning.)
 
Last edited:

Thisica

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I just have a visceral sentiment when I understand how the world works. Nothing more, nothing less. "Spirituality", in my books, is what you get if you try to find meaning, which would be human-tainted in these genuine feelings of awe and wonder about the universe.

What more could I want? I don't need to stick labels or even describe such sentiments. They are what they are and requires no further interpretation.
 

ultimawepun

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I voted non-spiritual. I said this on the other thread but there should have been a
Non-spiritual but philosophical option.

I don't deny the possibility of the supernatural, but all my ethics and particularly my motivations are educed without incorporating any specific spiritual or superstitious concepts.
 

lunalum

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Is there a way to edit the poll at all after it has been posted?
 

INTP

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i think its some misunderstanding of your own psyche
 

Totenkindly

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I voted non-spiritual. I said this on the other thread but there should have been a
Non-spiritual but philosophical option.

I don't deny the possibility of the supernatural, but all my ethics and particularly my motivations are educed without incorporating any specific spiritual or superstitious concepts.

I think I use "spiritual" and "philosophical" in much the same way, in regard to grand transcendent patterns in the universe. For some reason, balance and structure is experienced by me as some transcendent force -- or, put another way, the experience of truth is also my experience of beauty and vice versa, and I credit that as a form of spirituality because it transcends me as a mortal, tangible being.

My general observation of NT vs NF spiritality is that NT is more detached/impersonal and views it systematically, while NF is more apt to personalize it (into a being/beings/community).
 

ultimawepun

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@Jennifer
It's just a matter of definition. Many consider spirituality as philosophy, but the reverse isn't always true.

i think its some misunderstanding of your own psyche

If you were talking about me, then I'd argue that it's the same for every other belief.

But this is mine:

Morality, is a herd instinct in an individual.

Objectively, anything is bad if it's against the benefit of mankind. And anything beyond that is arguably subjective.

On the meaning of life: we are all animals in the end, and at birth, we are innately programmed to live and help benefit our own kind. Because of this, I think the meaning of life—and I'm referring to the state of being alive—isn't something that can be answered through philosophy, but through science.

Therefore, as long as you meet what is expected of you as a human or living being (objective), then you can do whatever you want as a sentient being (subjective).

And why is that people can't accept science as an answer? Is empathy not as beautiful if there weren't a magical force that intervenes? Must your motivations be beyond physical to give it importance? Is love not as romantic if it's bound by the possibility-filled reality called life? Is it not enough?
:huh:

But what's really great about what I believe in is that it can be analyzed and be given more depth. Unlike the stagnant bases for other beliefs, which even the believers themselves do not understand, my belief's bases continue to grow.



inb4 comments about evangelism, I just wanted to share my opinion. I absolutely will not force anything onto anyone. Also, I copy pasted two of my comments from INTJ forum to this post. I am lazy.
 

Beargryllz

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Would humanism fall strictly into non-spiritual, or just barely spiritual?
 

Totenkindly

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Would humanism fall strictly into non-spiritual, or just barely spiritual?

Yeah, humanism and/or some sort of broad philanthropism, which almost can take on a spiritual facet?
 

Greta

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This poll marginalizes by non-acknowledgment those religious folks who are spiritually vacant.
I know they're out there. :thelook:
 

ahr2nd

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Would humanism fall strictly into non-spiritual, or just barely spiritual?

Is there something otherworldly about your concern for others? :)

And why is that people can't accept science as an answer? Is empathy not as beautiful if there weren't a magical force that intervenes? Must your motivations be beyond physical to give it importance? Is love not as romantic if it's bound by the possibility-filled reality called life? Is it not enough?

Reminds me of a very short essay by Jesse Bering, "director of the Institute of Cognition and Culture at the Queen's University, Belfast," from the book What Is Your Dangerous Idea?: Today's Leading Thinkers on the Unthinkable. (Makes for a great bathroom reader!)

Here's an excerpt that you may find interesting:

"But my dangerous idea, I fear, is that no matter how far our thoughts vault into the eternal sky of scientific progress, no matter how dazzling the effects of this progress, God will always bite through his muzzle and banish us from the starry night of humanistic ideals.

Science is an endless series of binding and rebinding his breath. There will never be a day when God does not speak for the majority. There will never even be a day when he does not whisper into the ears of the most godless of scientists. This is not because God is not an idea, nor a cultural invention, nor an 'opiate of the masses,' nor any such thing. God is a way of thinking that has been rendered permanently by natural selection..."

A biological predisposition? That could make for an interesting investigation. (Also, I think that empathy is more beautiful if there isn't some sort of divine incentive, so I agree with you on that one.)
 

Rasofy

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I just don't know in which part of the evolutionary process we humans were gifted with a soul.
Or maybe people think every bacteria has a soul. :shock:
I'm guessing a prehistoric INFJ of the guru variation had this idea that we all have souls and started to disseminate it, and there we are :banana2:
 

ultimawepun

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A biological predisposition? That could make for an interesting investigation. (Also, I think that empathy is more beautiful if there isn't some sort of divine incentive, so I agree with you on that one.)

Perhaps exaggeration. I partly agree that the concept of God, or the Ultimate Cause as I'd like to properly call it, will continuously be associated with the pursuit of understanding life*.

Religion and superstition on the other hand are concepts that I believe, can be slowly omitted through time. They are just impatient answers to an enigmatic phenomenon in my opinion.

*Euphemism for science. No one likes the word science.
 

Xenon

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I answered according to the first definition: I don't believe in supernatural beings or phenomena, so I said "not spiritual at all". The second definition is pretty vague (what is "the spirit"?)

I have always thought the word "spiritual" was supposed to describe someone who did not follow an organized religion, but believed in a higher power or an afterlife, or certain new agey "woo" ideas. Only recently have I begun to hear it used in a different way. It seems a number of non-religious people are searching for some term that described a strong sense of meaning or purpose, or connectedness to something greater, or thoughts or practices that are life-affirming, or a sense of wonder and reverence for the universe and for life. Some examples:

The Centre for Spiritual Atheism
For Spiritual Atheists, being "Spiritual" means (at the very least) to nurture thoughts, words, and actions that are in harmony with the idea that the entire universe is, in some way, connected; even if only by the mysterious flow of cause and effect at every scale.

Therefore, Spiritual Atheists generally feel that as they go about their lives striving to be personally healthy and happy, they should also be striving to help the world around them be healthy and happy. (This empowering concept is referred to as "Wholistic Ethics".)

Spirituality for the Skeptic: The Thoughtful Love of Life
Solomon (business and philosophy, Univ. of Texas, Austin; A Passion for Wisdom) has no sympathy for New Age spirituality or any family heritage of traditional religious practice. Nevertheless, he has also grown weary of academic philosophy's tendency toward "clever paradox and puzzle-solving" and "often cynical obscurantism." "Philosophy," he reminds us, "is a spiritual practice." He looks to philosophy itself, especially the work of Hegel and Nietzsche, to provide the tools to pursue a naturalized spirituality, spirituality as "the thoughtful love of life." Separate chapters address thoughtful spirituality as characterized by passion, cosmic trust, and rationality; as facing up to tragedy, fate, and death; and as fostering transformation of the self.

I think the idea has a lot of value, and it's important to get across that not believing in the supernatural doesn't doom you to an empty, meaningless life. A depressing number of religious or "spiritual" people believe this about atheists/naturalists/skeptics. Hell, a lot of us who once held supernatural beliefs and eventually let go of them went through a period of believing this. But I'm not wild about using the term "spiritual" to describe this sense of meaning or transcendence or wonder. It creates too much confusion. It sounds too mystical-magical-airy-fairy-dippy-hippy for me. :shrug:

So...I voted no, not spiritual, although I by some alternative definitions I guess I might be.
 

Coriolis

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My general observation of NT vs NF spiritality is that NT is more detached/impersonal and views it systematically, while NF is more apt to personalize it (into a being/beings/community).
Yes. I voted "spiritual but not religious". I believe there is more to life than can be objectively measured and proven; perhaps more than we will ever be able to measure and prove. (Yes, this is itself a belief that cannot be proven.) But, I expect a certain degree of logic and internal consistency in a belief system. Most religions fall short, which is why I have no patience with them. I pursue my spirituality in my own way, with a small group of like-minded individuals. When I learned to see beyond the religion in which I was brought up (did not take long), it was like having blinders removed.
 

lunalum

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Would humanism fall strictly into non-spiritual, or just barely spiritual?

Humanism, in the common sense that is synonymous with Secular Humanism, would not be spiritual because it is specifically about a worldview that emphasizes using ethics and human reason without supernaturalism or dogma.

Humanism, in the most general sense, meaning 'focusing on human values or concerns' is not spiritual in and of itself but could easily be paired with some sort of spirituality.

This poll marginalizes by non-acknowledgment those religious folks who are spiritually vacant.
I know they're out there. :thelook:

Hehehe, I was originally going to directly acknowledge this on the poll, but I figured that since my focus is on spirituality more than religion, those out there who do practice religion without spirituality could be in the "not spiritual at all' category, or perhaps in the 'other' category.

*Euphemism for science. No one likes the word science.

I do :D

I answered according to the first definition: I don't believe in supernatural beings or phenomena, so I said "not spiritual at all". The second definition is pretty vague (what is "the spirit"?)

*edited to dismiss the second definiton for now, since I don't understand it very well either

I have always thought the word "spiritual" was supposed to describe someone who did not follow an organized religion, but believed in a higher power or an afterlife, or certain new agey "woo" ideas. Only recently have I begun to hear it used in a different way. It seems a number of non-religious people are searching for some term that described a strong sense of meaning or purpose, or connectedness to something greater, or thoughts or practices that are life-affirming, or a sense of wonder and reverence for the universe and for life.

Yes, beyond the general meaning, 'spiritual' can take on all sorts of definitions depending on who you ask. According to the definition I am using, connectedness to something greater would qualify as spiritual, but a sense of wonder and reverence for life and the universe would not necessarily be spiritual.

And for the purposes of the poll, I would see those who believe in a higher power and the afterlife without a specific religion, and those who follow new agey ideas, as 'spiritual but not religious.'

The Centre for Spiritual Atheism

Spirituality for the Skeptic: The Thoughtful Love of Life

I think the idea has a lot of value, and it's important to get across that not believing in the supernatural doesn't doom you to an empty, meaningless life. A depressing number of religious or "spiritual" people believe this about atheists/naturalists/skeptics. Hell, a lot of us who once held supernatural beliefs and eventually let go of them went through a period of believing this. But I'm not wild about using the term "spiritual" to describe this sense of meaning or transcendence or wonder. It creates too much confusion. It sounds too mystical-magical-airy-fairy-dippy-hippy for me. :shrug:

So...I voted no, not spiritual, although I by some alternative definitions I guess I might be.

Yes, I would consider these kinds of views 'not spiritual,' but still very important as to see the spectrum of nonspirituality as well.
 

Red Herring

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Humanism, in the common sense that is synonymous with Secular Humanism, would not be spiritual because it is specifically about a worldview that emphasizes using ethics and human reason without supernaturalism or dogma.

Humanism, in the most general sense, meaning 'focusing on human values or concerns' is not spiritual in and of itself but could easily be paired with some sort of spirituality.



Hehehe, I was originally going to directly acknowledge this on the poll, but I figured that since my focus is on spirituality more than religion, those out there who do practice religion without spirituality could be in the "not spiritual at all' category, or perhaps in the 'other' category.



I do :D



*edited to dismiss the second definiton for now, since I don't understand it very well either



Yes, beyond the general meaning, 'spiritual' can take on all sorts of definitions depending on who you ask. According to the definition I am using, connectedness to something greater would qualify as spiritual, but a sense of wonder and reverence for life and the universe would not necessarily be spiritual.

And for the purposes of the poll, I would see those who believe in a higher power and the afterlife without a specific religion, and those who follow new agey ideas, as 'spiritual but not religious.'



Yes, I would consider these kinds of views 'not spiritual,' but still very important as to see the spectrum of nonspirituality as well.

Thanks for those clarifications. As a strictly secular humanist, you can put me down under "not spiritual at all" then.
 

rav3n

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Not sure what to vote. There are places in nature that "feel" spiritual, where you "feel" a connection to nature. People have an essence, they're living concepts.

But neither religious or spiritual, as it pertains to the transcendental shit or a believer of ghosts and goblins.
 

Caesar

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I disbelieve in God and supernatural things. I prefer to be "philosophical".
 
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