[NT] NTP and Fe

[Cypocalypse]

I just had one of my more profound conversations with a 20 year old INTP girl. We were talking about Fe (kinda), and she was asking me (sort of)...

"Why do you look for your niche, and wouldn't you be happy just being individualistic?"

Being the INTP that she is, she does see a bit of pretension on my part doing some degree of social conformity (Fe). She's that smart to see the "facade".

Being a self proclaimed ENTP, currently 29 years old (who doesn't really have a very strong sense of extroversion), I thought that maybe most INTPs will just be reformed into this more ENTP-ish phase once they get older. Honestly, I really feel more INTP-ish years ago.

But I'm kinda letting go of my INTP-ish angst, and over years, I'm kinda developing my Ne and Fe, and letting go of my grip on my Ti. You have to admit, INTPs do cling too much to their Ti.

______________

The way I see it...there's a certain degree of fluidity and flexibility that Ne and Fe provides that Ti can't give. It's like Ti has its own sense of rigid self-imposed logic.

Any ENTPs here that can relate to this?

It's like, you need to have a certain degree of social conformity (Fe) and creative flexibility (Ne) to pursue individualistic agendas. The individuality is still there in the agenda, but you need to make some compromises, instead of clinging to the virtue of your own intellect (Ti).

I think this is how I've been transforming over the past couple of years. Maybe because I'm already 29. I don't know. I can't say if this is a normal ENTP "development" route of some sort, but I personally enjoy it.

Though the thing is, it's kinda hard to explain this to an INTP which has as much sense of self worth as you have.

The gist here is, you find your niche to pursue your personal goals. You just can't do it alone.

Anyone here shares similar sentiments?

 

[funkadelik]

The way I see the world (ie. other people as a collective) is that it will go on without me. It will go on without any one person. So it is not the world's job to understand me.

If I want my ideas to be understood (and accepted) I'm gonna need to present them in a way that caters to other people's sense of acceptance. If they feel loved and important by me, I'll stand a chance of being viewed as loved and important by them in turn (and what I say will have some actual meaning to it outside of myself).

Essentially, play the game.

Yeah, I'm definitely capable of being individualistic and I definitely am, but it's more internal. I don't feel like a "cop-out" for conforming to social norms because it doesn't change, fundamentally, my individuality. Why should it?

Making compromises isn't all that bad a thing to do. They can really open up the doors to new things. Help people move on. Sometimes when you refuse to compromise you'll just get stuck beating a dead horse over and over and over again and seriously, where's the fun in (and point to) that?

 

[Such Irony]

But I'm kinda letting go of my INTP-ish angst, and over years, I'm kinda developing my Ne and Fe, and letting go of my grip on my Ti. You have to admit, INTPs do cling too much to their Ti.

The unbalanced INTPs do.
______________

The way I see it...there's a certain degree of fluidity and flexibility that Ne and Fe provides that Ti can't give. It's like Ti has its own sense of rigid self-imposed logic.

Any ENTPs here that can relate to this?

It's like, you need to have a certain degree of social conformity (Fe) and creative flexibility (Ne) to pursue individualistic agendas. The individuality is still there in the agenda, but you need to make some compromises, instead of clinging to the virtue of your own intellect (Ti).

Makes sense to me.

 

[Totenkindly]

I just had one of my more profound conversations with a 20 year old INTP girl. We were talking about Fe (kinda), and she was asking me (sort of)...

"Why do you look for your niche, and wouldn't you be happy just being individualistic?"

Being the INTP that she is, she does see a bit of pretension on my part doing some degree of social conformity (Fe). She's that smart to see the "facade".

Being a self proclaimed ENTP, currently 29 years old (who doesn't really have a very strong sense of extroversion), I thought that maybe most INTPs will just be reformed into this more ENTP-ish phase once they get older. Honestly, I really feel more INTP-ish years ago.

I agree. I'm 42 now, and I was more textbook INTP when I was 20. Sometimes it's to the point where I don't know who I am anymore, because I've changed so much. It's not that I've lost my Ti perspective, it's just that I've learned to shift gears into so many other ways of seeing the world, Ti might be the most "natural" view for me (and it's where I go to search for clarity) but it's not my primary consideration all the time. I'm immersed in a lot of relational work in my life, and I live a lot in my N'ish "possibility" mindset.

But I'm kinda letting go of my INTP-ish angst, and over years, I'm kinda developing my Ne and Fe, and letting go of my grip on my Ti. You have to admit, INTPs do cling too much to their Ti.

That's basically where I am at now. My Ne/Fe extroverted senses (how I engage the world) are very strong at this point, and it's kind of unsettling even as instinctively I know it's for the best. I somehow have to meld it all in order to anchor myself.

One problem is that I used to very very very solid and having a stable inner core; but with all the shift into Ne/Fe, I sometimes feel like my personality doesn't exist, I'm not sure who I am. When something external changes, I automatically change to accommodate it, and it bothers me / leaves me feeling unstable.

I also find myself shifting around trying to find stimulation from the external environment all the time, whereas I used to be happy being alone and doing things on my own, and shutting the rest of the world (people and surroundings) out. That feeling of instability, I'm wondering if that is far more typical of Ne and Fe strong people -- where you're changing to accommodate external reality so much.

Ti is rigid, like screws anchored in bedrock.

As is said here:

The way I see it...there's a certain degree of fluidity and flexibility that Ne and Fe provides that Ti can't give. It's like Ti has its own sense of rigid self-imposed logic.

Yes.

It's like, you need to have a certain degree of social conformity (Fe) and creative flexibility (Ne) to pursue individualistic agendas. The individuality is still there in the agenda, but you need to make some compromises, instead of clinging to the virtue of your own intellect (Ti).

I agree. Ti is great on its own, but to be effective in the world, it needs some help.

I think this is how I've been transforming over the past couple of years. Maybe because I'm already 29. I don't know. I can't say if this is a normal ENTP "development" route of some sort, but I personally enjoy it.

Though the thing is, it's kinda hard to explain this to an INTP which has as much sense of self worth as you have.

The gist here is, you find your niche to pursue your personal goals. You just can't do it alone.

Anyone here shares similar sentiments?

Yup. See above.

 

[Cat_Cloud]

I agree. If INTP's just stay in their own world and rely on their own intellect, they could end up not being where they want to be. Developing my Fe and Ne has made many things easier for me, but at the same time I feel like I'm loosing something...

 

[Greta]

I just had one of my more profound conversations with a 20 year old INTP girl. We were talking about Fe (kinda), and she was asking me (sort of)...

"Why do you look for your niche, and wouldn't you be happy just being individualistic?"

But I'm kinda letting go of my INTP-ish angst, and over years, I'm kinda developing my Ne and Fe, and letting go of my grip on my Ti.

Why is it the INTP who has angst when you're the one worried about fitting in?

 

[INTPness]

Yeah, it can be tough for the INTP to let go of Ti. As you get older, you definitely see the need for it though. You see other people being successful (in social circles, in jobs, etc.) by letting go and not just being a Ti-monster.

I agree with what has been said by both the ENTP's and the INTP's so far in the thread. For INTP's, we see that it's important to "fit in" (at least to some degree) and we see the importance of Ne and Fe, but it also feels like you're "letting go" of something that is so essential to yourself and like you're getting into an area that you're not all that proficient in. I love using Ne; Fe is a little more "strange". It's like when you can speak a foreign language to someone for basic things like asking for directions, etc., but you can't really "have a full conversation" with them in that language, cuz you don't really know the language as good as they do - sort of thing.

And I agree with the ENTP's that Ti can't do it all by itself. It needs help.

What's hard for the INTP is that we are often so individualistic that sometimes when we rely a lot on Fe to "play the game" (as AllegoryStory said) - it feels like we're "selling out". Like, if I need something from you or I need your help to move forward with my plans, I only feel good about using Fe if I would already have talked to you about it anyways. But, if I wouldn't normally have talked to you, then it feels very, very fake for me to use Fe simply to further my own goals. Because the whole time I'm talking to you, I'm going to be thinking in my head, "The only reason I'm talking to this person is for my own selfish gain. Normally, if I had nothing to gain, I wouldn't even be talking to this person."

Although I see the "effectiveness" of it, it sort of goes against my moral code. I'm not playing the morality card here, I'm just saying that it doesn't feel right to me when I'm doing it. It feels strange, it feels inauthentic. I don't want to "use" the person to catapult my own agenda or my own position. If they're already a friend or if we've already "used each other" for various things, then it's already been established that such things are acceptable between us.

And I absolutely hate watching someone "butter up" another person using Fe for their own personal gain. It's like, "Hey, I didn't give a crap about you last week and I won't really give a crap about you the moment this conversation is over, but, yeah, do you think you could do a big favor for me today?" And, just because you're smiling at them and acting friendly towards them at that moment and you told a funny joke that made the person laugh before you asked the favor, doesn't change the fact that you're basically "using the person". The joking and the Fe is only a way of "making it look nice" - dressing it up. I see the personal value in it (my agenda will move forward), but I don't see the value in it for the other person - in fact, I usually see it as "unfair" to them especially when they have no idea they just got pwned by the ENTP and his Fe. It's valuable for "me" and "what I want", but it's just really hard for me to engage in that practice (and admittedly, I'm not that good at it).

 

[Beargryllz]

I agree with what has been said by both the ENTP's and the INTP's so far in the thread. For INTP's, we see that it's important to "fit in" (at least to some degree) and we see the importance of Ne and Fe, but it also feels like you're "letting go" of something that is so essential to yourself and like you're getting into an area that you're not all that proficient in. I love using Ne; Fe is a little more "strange". It's like when you can speak a foreign language to someone for basic things like asking for directions, etc., but you can't really "have a full conversation" with them in that language, cuz you don't really know the language as good as they do - sort of thing.

And I agree with the ENTP's that Ti can't do it all by itself. It needs help.

What's hard for the INTP is that we are often so individualistic that sometimes when we rely a lot on Fe to "play the game" (as AllegoryStory said) - it feels like we're "selling out". Like, if I need something from you or I need your help to move forward with my plans, I only feel good about using Fe if I would already have talked to you about it anyways. But, if I wouldn't normally have talked to you, then it feels very, very fake for me to use Fe simply to further my own goals. Because the whole time I'm talking to you, I'm going to be thinking in my head, "The only reason I'm talking to this person is for my own selfish gain. Normally, if I had nothing to gain, I wouldn't even be talking to this person."

Although I see the "effectiveness" of it, it sort of goes against my moral code. I'm not playing the morality card here, I'm just saying that it doesn't feel right to me when I'm doing it. It feels strange, it feels inauthentic. I don't want to "use" the person to catapult my own agenda or my own position. If they're already a friend or if we've already "used each other" for various things, then it's already been established that such things are acceptable between us.

Well I'm glad we're all on the same page here.

 

[Totenkindly]

Really good post.

I agree with what has been said by both the ENTP's and the INTP's so far in the thread. For INTP's, we see that it's important to "fit in" (at least to some degree) and we see the importance of Ne and Fe, but it also feels like you're "letting go" of something that is so essential to yourself and like you're getting into an area that you're not all that proficient in. I love using Ne; Fe is a little more "strange". It's like when you can speak a foreign language to someone for basic things like asking for directions, etc., but you can't really "have a full conversation" with them in that language, cuz you don't really know the language as good as they do - sort of thing.

Yeah, I actually use Ne more than Ti in social groups, and I'm a big "possibility" thinker and integrator. It's simply that in the end I still need a coherent framework to define the possibilities, but while I'm in a situation, I'm very good at seeing possibilities springing off in every direction, and people generally like brainstormers, it's a "positive/creative" mode of interaction that only seems disliked when there is a strong focus in a particular setting and Ne continues to derail progress.

I honestly would not have learned to see life through much of an Fe perspective except that I was raised in that environment (both family and religion), and had spouse and in-laws of strong Fe persuasion. At some point it all flipped over for me and suddenly I could "see."

What I really hate about Fe perspective is when I get stuck arguing with other NTs about it, and then sometimes get accused of being an Fe-monger because I'm not giving them the T perspective (which I don't need to -- everyone is already grasping THAT aspect of things). No, I'm just expressing another way to look at the same situation that might actually help balance out and resolve the situation for everyone, not just the T's, or enabling the T's to expand their thinking. It's just funny how much bad blood has sometimes built up between NTPs and the Fe persuasion.

What's hard for the INTP is that we are often so individualistic that sometimes when we rely a lot on Fe to "play the game" (as AllegoryStory said) - it feels like we're "selling out". Like, if I need something from you or I need your help to move forward with my plans, I only feel good about using Fe if I would already have talked to you about it anyways. But, if I wouldn't normally have talked to you, then it feels very, very fake for me to use Fe simply to further my own goals. Because the whole time I'm talking to you, I'm going to be thinking in my head, "The only reason I'm talking to this person is for my own selfish gain. Normally, if I had nothing to gain, I wouldn't even be talking to this person."

Yeah, "networking" is one of those arenas.

The only way I got past it is to stop labeling it as "selfish" or "manipulative" and reducing it to "Realistically, this is just how life works; and as long as I'm honest about my intent and also putting back into the system what I'm taking out, then I'm still maintaining my integrity."

Although I see the "effectiveness" of it, it sort of goes against my moral code. I'm not playing the morality card here, I'm just saying that it doesn't feel right to me when I'm doing it. It feels strange, it feels inauthentic. I don't want to "use" the person to catapult my own agenda or my own position. If they're already a friend or if we've already "used each other" for various things, then it's already been established that such things are acceptable between us.

Yes, I totally get it.

I have trouble "calling people cold." I will contact people I'm already friends with or acquainted with, and who I know will help me, and I know I would help if THEY came to ME. So now it's merely a matter of exchange, not manipulation or use.

I think I've only been offended where someone contacts me only for what they want and then never contacts me again, and meanwhile acts like we're close when we are not. For example, I had a guy friend in college who lived a few states away; our relationship at school was marginal; he did not talk to me for a few years, then completely contacts me out of the blue because he wants to "visit and catch up"... but then mentions he also has a business now and wanted to pitch me on something. I felt from the start he was just seeing me to sell me, not seeing me AND selling me, but I agreed.

It turned out to be Amway.

He really only stopped by for a few hours, the "catching up" was all really just basic preliminary, and then he's spending much of his time making his sales pitch, and then he leaves, and I haven't seen him since. It has been, what, 15 years now?

To me, that was skeevy. I can tell the difference between a friend who hits me up with a proposition vs someone who is just using my acquaintance to make a profit.

And I absolutely hate watching someone "butter up" another person using Fe for their own personal gain. It's like, "Hey, I didn't give a crap about you last week and I won't really give a crap about you the moment this conversation is over, but, yeah, do you think you could do a big favor for me today?" And, just because you're smiling at them and acting friendly towards them at that moment and you told a funny joke that made the person laugh before you asked the favor, doesn't change the fact that you're basically "using the person".

Exactly.

I see the personal value in it (my agenda will move forward), but I don't see the value in it for the other person - in fact, I usually see it as "unfair" to them especially when they have no idea they just got pwned by the ENTP and his Fe. It's valuable for "me" and "what I want", but it's just really hard for me to engage in that practice (and admittedly, I'm not that good at it).

Like I said, I cannot do that unless I have an internal realization that if they came to me with a similar proposition, I would give them my time and return the favor; or at least I would try to make sure that what I was asking of them would benefit them in some substantial way so it was a win-win.

But in general, I am hesitant to involve others in stuff like that. I don't like to sell things.

 

[INTPness]

What I really hate about Fe perspective is when I get stuck arguing with other NTs about it, and then sometimes get accused of being an Fe-monger because I'm not giving them the T perspective (which I don't need to -- everyone is already grasping THAT aspect of things). No, I'm just expressing another way to look at the same situation that might actually help balance out and resolve the situation for everyone, not just the T's, or enabling the T's to expand their thinking. It's just funny how much bad blood has sometimes built up between NTPs and the Fe persuasion.

Agreed with your post, but just wanted to touch on this part (above): I think NTP's that are what I would call "hard T's" (very far away from "F" on the T/F continuum) often see other NTP's (who are closer to F) as NFP's and they think we've mistyped ourselves. Like, if I bust out my Fe and start speaking that language to offer a different perspective or even to express myself in that way (why? Cuz I feel like it. I feel like getting out of super-INTP mode once in a while), then somehow I'm automatically going to be seen as an INFP. And I'm not. I'm just an INTP with a softer, mushier, more artistic flare (5w4) rather than the INTP who studies Physics over dinner, eats Chemistry for breakfast, and can't fathom the existence of a higher power or anything that hasn't been proven by a formula or a theorum.

How's that for sarcasm?

 

[The_World_As_Will]

Agreed with your post, but just wanted to touch on this part (above): I think NTP's that are what I would call "hard T's" (very far away from "F" on the T/F continuum) often see other NTP's (who are closer to F) as NFP's and they think we've mistyped ourselves. Like, if I bust out my Fe and start speaking that language to offer a different perspective or even to express myself in that way (why? Cuz I feel like it. I feel like getting out of super-INTP mode once in a while), then somehow I'm automatically going to be seen as an INFP. And I'm not. I'm just an INTP with a softer, mushier, more artistic flare (5w4) rather than the INTP who studies Physics over dinner, eats Chemistry for breakfast, and can't fathom the existence of a higher power or anything that hasn't been proven by a formula or a theorum.

How's that for sarcasm?

+1 Agreed completely, NTPs who are logic-whores IMO tend to be really unhealthy, as a former logic whore myself, I can definitely say that most of those NTPs who are afraid Fe or any sort of emotive expression or emotive reason for that matter, are sad little child, immature unhealthy people... frankly we need more healthy NTPs out there.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think NTP's that are what I would call "hard T's" (very far away from "F" on the T/F continuum) often see other NTP's (who are closer to F) as NFP's and they think we've mistyped ourselves. Like, if I bust out my Fe and start speaking that language to offer a different perspective or even to express myself in that way (why? Cuz I feel like it. I feel like getting out of super-INTP mode once in a while), then somehow I'm automatically going to be seen as an INFP. And I'm not. I'm just an INTP with a softer, mushier, more artistic flare (5w4) rather than the INTP who studies Physics over dinner, eats Chemistry for breakfast, and can't fathom the existence of a higher power or anything that hasn't been proven by a formula or a theorum.

Yeah, we're both on the same page there. T that severe is almost like ST in that all of those topics are very much tied into physical sciences, whereas I focus so much on N that I am far more interested in the abstracted fields of rational inquiry and find intra/interpersonal systems fascinating due to their complexities and how they are experienced.

How's that for sarcasm?

Oh. I thought you were being serious.

 

[INTPness]

+1 Agreed completely, NTPs who are logic-whores IMO tend to be really unhealthy, as a former logic whore myself, I can definitely say that most of those NTPs who are afraid Fe or any sort of emotive expression or emotive reason for that matter, are sad little child, immature unhealthy people... frankly we need more healthy NTPs out there.

Well, it's important to remember that the functions (and our individual preferences for them) are on a continuum. A "hard T" could, in fact, be "healthy". He just has no preference for F because he is far away from it on the continuum. In fact, he probably sees me as unhealthy for using "too much F".

On a side note, I hate the whole "healthy/unhealthy" discussions on this site. Mainly because, 99.9% of the time it's talked about like this: "My ex was so unhealthy", "my mom is so unhealthy", and "those OTHER PEOPLE are so unhealthy". It's like nobody ever stops and thinks, "Oh crap, maybe I'm the unhealthy one!" Know what I mean?

There are unhealthy people, no doubt about it, but maybe we all are to some extent. I think it's often just a difference in preferences. One person wants cold, hard logic, while another person doesn't need as much and is more expressive. Some people need a BOATLOAD of attention and/or quality time (extroverts) - introverts might see this as unhealthy, but maybe it's just cuz it's so opposite from us - it "seems" unhealthy to us - it "seems" out of balance to us. But, our lack of needing it seems unhealthy to them.

Every time I see someone say "so and so was very unhealthy" I always want to say, "rest assured that he or she is probably telling people that YOU are the strange one or that YOU are the unhealthy one."

 

[The_World_As_Will]

Well, it's important to remember that the functions (and our individual preferences for them) are on a continuum. A "hard T" could, in fact, be "healthy". He just has no preference for F because he is far away from it on the continuum. In fact, he probably sees me as unhealthy for using "too much F".

On a side note, I hate the whole "healthy/unhealthy" discussions on this site. Mainly because, 99.9% of the time it's talked about like this: "My ex was so unhealthy", "my mom is so unhealthy", and "those OTHER PEOPLE are so unhealthy". It's like nobody ever stops and thinks, "Oh crap, maybe I'm the unhealthy one!" Know what I mean?

There are unhealthy people, no doubt about it, but maybe we all are to some extent. I think it's often just a difference in preferences. One person wants cold, hard logic, while another person doesn't need as much and is more expressive. Some people need a BOATLOAD of attention and/or quality time (extroverts) - introverts might see this as unhealthy, but maybe it's just cuz it's so opposite from us - it "seems" unhealthy to us - it "seems" out of balance to us. But, our lack of needing it seems unhealthy to them.

Every time I see someone say "so and so was very unhealthy" I always want to say, "rest assured that he or she is probably telling people that YOU are the strange one or that YOU are the unhealthy one."

I totally understand that, and I would agree, I guess for myself the unhealthy/healthy distinction gives me as a individual some 'goal' to work towards, I suppose. I do think it does get thrown around alot, and that in most cases it's perhaps a bit of projection and certain traits about the so-called unhealthy person and the individual that don't mesh and that certainly does happen. I think we all have to step back, and we can all have unhealthy tendencies, it's the price of being human. It isn't a bad thing, might be annoying when it has to be dealt with but hopefully the person , or both individuals are able to learn from it and be a little 'less' unhealthy than that's great.

 

[Coriolis]

On a side note, I hate the whole "healthy/unhealthy" discussions on this site. Mainly because, 99.9% of the time it's talked about like this: "My ex was so unhealthy", "my mom is so unhealthy", and "those OTHER PEOPLE are so unhealthy". It's like nobody ever stops and thinks, "Oh crap, maybe I'm the unhealthy one!"

I wonder this sometimes, when I keep getting stuck in the same problem and feel as if I don't even want to fix it, or acknowledge it as a problem; or when I see myself in the issues someone else is experiencing. I just don't make threads about it because I don't like to whine, I enjoy my privacy, I hate pity, and I don't expect people on a forum to solve my problems for me.

 

[milkyway2]

I do see a need for it as well, more and more as I grow older. And I don't like changing.. I feel like something is slipping away as well.. Sometimes taking time out of the day to just sit outside, look at nature, and think, helps me feel more at home inside my head. :]

 

[Such Irony]

frankly we need more healthy NTPs out there.

I'm one :hi:

 

[Beargryllz]

Am I healthy?

 

[The_World_As_Will]

Am I healthy?

Given that smile (or smirk) on your face in the avatar I'd say so lol, but reading your posts, it seems very mature and considerate of others but still willing to point out when an argument is flawed. It's a trait I've noticed in myself and in other INTPs, maybe it is the growth of Fe?, we are finally able to get out of our heads and not see emotions as thoughts.

 

[funkadelik]

I'm kind of interested in how Fe expression differs between male and female NTPs. I would say that females tend to be warmer, but at the same time I know I can be as big a troll as any guy.

Maybe it differs when male and female NTPs start to really pay attention to and value their Fe. Women might feel it sooner as their biological clocks are likely to run out sooner than men's. I know every once in a while I'm overcome with very strong, very strange maternal feelings for other people. And babies. My uterus is telling me I've only got X number more years of fertility. Gotta find me a husband and a steady income and start churning out some offspring! And that means opening up and caring for other people and building a support network to help break any falls I might have as I synthesize my new family.

I dunno...thoughts anyone?