[NT] So, this xNTJ has asked me to review a short story he wrote...

[Dali]

which I think he's going to send off to a writing competition.

Honestly speaking, I think his writing is sh*t, bless him. He has some great ideas in there but the execution leaves much to be desired. If I were him, I'd redraft 3/4 of it while preserving the core of it, so to speak. I've known him for an year but I only just found out he writes when he asked me to review his story.

Here's my dilemma. He's pretty young (18) and writing is clearly a passion of his. Therefore, I'd like be gentle with him and let him know that he does have potential (he does) but I don't want to be overly saccharine with him and insult his (remarkable) intelligence. How can I tell him the above? How should I? How would you, as an NTJ, like to hear criticism, when it touches on something that you value deeply, phrased? (I don't want to lie to him...)

 

[Beargryllz]

Point out every error individually and show him some way to improve it. Be specific.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

This is why you ALWAYS SAY 'NO!'

 

[ThatGirl]

Point out every error individually and show him some way to improve it. Be specific.

Oh, hell no. This is why I don't allow INTPs to edit my papers anymore. Not only do you guys edit the "errors" you change the content, and nit pick, on subjective "improvements."

The best thing to do is to give your interpretation of the writing, how it made you feel, what the message was that came across. If it is wrong or different than what he was attempting, he will revise the paper himself.

 

[Beargryllz]

Oh, hell no. This is why I don't allow INTPs to edit my papers anymore. Not only do you guys edit the "errors" you change the content, and nit pick, on subjective "improvements."

The best thing to do is to give your interpretation of the writing, how it made you feel, what the message was that came across. If it is wrong or different than what he was attempting, he will revise the paper himself.

He could be lost in the woods for a long time. Better to identify the inadequate, misunderstood parts and fix them. Apply working literary techniques or tweak the story until it doesn't come off so haphazard. This is a serious skill to learn, so we want to aim for precision and consistently produce quality writing.

 

[ThatGirl]

I am getting frustrated just thinking about it.

 

[Jonny]

Why don't you ask him specifically what his intended goals are for the story. Some stories are intended to entertain, others to enlighten, others to facilitate emotion, etc. Try to pinpoint what he is attempting to do, and tailor the criticisms toward achieving those goals. In this way, you can make himself his own critic by providing evidence that, at the very least, the story is not achieving its intended purpose with you as the reader.

 

[ThatGirl]

Why don't to ask him specifically what his intended goals are for the story. Some stories are intended to entertain, others to enlighten, others to facilitate emotion, etc. Try to pinpoint what he is attempting to do, and tailor the criticisms toward achieving those goals. In this way, you can make himself his own critic by providing evidence that, at the very least, the story is not achieving its intended purpose with you as the reader.

This is perfect.

 

[Beargryllz]

I am getting frustrated just thinking about it.

Work can be extremely frustrating, but adding perspectives and analyzing the procedure as it happens only makes the process of producing pristine stories easier in the long run. We could sit around for years while the stress piles up, or we could look at the idea and make it happen. A mind wanders, and writers may want to avoid this. We keep them on a stable path, and it's not that we lack trust or faith in them, but that we really can help.

 

[ThatGirl]

Work can be extremely frustrating, but adding perspectives and analyzing the procedure as it happens only makes the process of producing pristine stories easier in the long run. We could sit around for years while the stress piles up, or we could look at the idea and make it happen. A mind wanders, and writers may want to avoid this. We keep them on a stable path, and it's not that we lack trust or faith in them, but that we really can help.

That may be true, but if the xNTJ is satisfied with the content of the paper itself they are more than capable of editing it down to say exactly what they want it to. The creative nature is probably coming from the Ni, and when an INTP gets in there and starts Ti-ing it out, it can be very frustrating. Probably not what the xNTJ was asking for, specially if they are asking for an opinion. The op stated this was a review not a revision.

Save that kind of feedback for after they have finished their final draft, then get in there and subtly tweak it to perfection.

 

[Dali]

Point out every error individually and show him some way to improve it. Be specific.

This is what I did the last time an INTJ asked me to review their writing. The difference is that she had expressly given me permission to do exactly that whereas... this guy hasn't and I do want to tell him what I really think but I don't want to come off as too blunt or too forward.

This is why you ALWAYS SAY 'NO!'

Haha. The kid opened up and, in a rare moment of vulnerability, very haltingly asked this favour of me. There was no way I could turn him down.

But then again... I'm a bloody marketer, why do people keep asking me to look at their writing? Teach me how to say no!

The best thing to do is to give your interpretation of the writing, how it made you feel, what the message was that came across. If it is wrong or different than what he was attempting, he will revise the paper himself.

+

Why don't you ask him specifically what his intended goals are for the story. Some stories are intended to entertain, others to enlighten, others to facilitate emotion, etc. Try to pinpoint what he is attempting to do, and tailor the criticisms toward achieving those goals. In this way, you can make himself his own critic by providing evidence that, at the very least, the story is not achieving its intended purpose with you as the reader.

The thing is, I get his message just fine, the voice that he is going for, the tone, it's all there. Or rather, parts of it are perceptible to the keen reader (oddly enough). It's his writing technique (odd choice of stylistic devises...et al) and choice of words that leave me cold. He chooses three ginormous ones where one would suffice and is unnecessarily verbose and, honestly, it's a bit tedious for the reader. The 'big picture', as he envisions it, is there but (many) little details here and there are lacking when it comes to the execution. What would you suggest then? Is it in order for me to first compliment him, then break down the work and very subtly ask him why he chose a particular word or metaphor and then go through the entire text with him this way?

He could be lost in the woods for a long time. Better to identify the inadequate, misunderstood parts and fix them. Apply working literary techniques or tweak the story until it doesn't come off so haphazard. This is a serious skill to learn, so we want to aim for precision and consistently produce quality writing.

Work can be extremely frustrating, but adding perspectives and analyzing the procedure as it happens only makes the process of producing pristine stories easier in the long run. We could sit around for years while the stress piles up, or we could look at the idea and make it happen. A mind wanders, and writers may want to avoid this. We keep them on a stable path, and it's not that we lack trust or faith in them, but that we really can help.

God I wish he were INTP. That would make this so much easier.

 

[Dali]

That may be true, but if the xNTJ is satisfied with the content of the paper itself they are more than capable of editing it down to say exactly what they want it to. The creative nature is probably coming from the Ni, and when an INTP gets in there and starts Ti-ing it out, it can be very frustrating. Probably not what the xNTJ was asking for, specially if they are asking for an opinion. The op stated this was a review not a revision.

Save that kind of feedback for after they have finished their final draft, then get in there and subtly tweak it to perfection.

I feel NiFi through the entire work but it doesn't seem to be backed up sufficiently by a (T) rational function. That seems to be where the issues with the work stem from.

Unfortunately, I do think this is his final draft.

 

[ThatGirl]

The thing is, I get his message just fine, the voice that he is going for, the tone, it's all there. Or rather, parts of it are perceptible to the keen reader (oddly enough). It's his writing technique (odd choice of stylistic devises...et al) and choice of words that leave me cold. He chooses three ginormous ones where one would suffice and is unnecessarily verbose and, honestly, it's a bit tedious for the reader. The 'big picture', as he envisions it, is there but (many) little details here and there are lacking when it comes to the execution. What would you suggest then? Is it in order for me to first compliment him, then break down the work and very subtly ask him why he chose a particular word or metaphor and then go through the entire text with him this way?

Say that.

 

[Jonny]

The thing is, I get his message just fine, the voice that he is going for, the tone, it's all there. Or rather, parts of it are perceptible to the keen reader (oddly enough). It's his writing technique (odd choice of stylistic devises...et al) and choice of words that leave me cold. He chooses three ginormous ones where one would suffice and is unnecessarily verbose and, honestly, it's a bit tedious for the reader. The 'big picture', as he envisions it, is there but (many) little details here and there are lacking when it comes to the execution. What would you suggest then? Is it in order for me to first compliment him, then break down the work and very subtly ask him why he chose a particular word or metaphor and then go through the entire text with him this way?

Again, try to isolate exactly what it is he is trying to achieve. If he intends his story to be filled with verbosity and leave the reader feeling "cold" then he has achieved his desired goal, and there really is nothing you can say which will help him. It seems as though you believe there is a disconnect between his intentions and delivery, however, and so I would suggest looking deeper. Writing is, at its heart, a form of expression and a way to communicate. Your task, as the editor, is to conclusively establish his intentions for that communication, and to compare those with how his writing is communicating with you specifically. This includes all intentions, no matter how large or small.

 

[Beargryllz]

Yes, the audience is important to consider. Sometimes we have to almost pick one and then aim to satisfy it. Make sure we know what his is. A good piece of work will be liked by most people, but you can't please everyone. Communication is fundamental.

 

[Dali]

Thanks guys, your input has been really helpful. I think I now know how to approach this.

 

[Nicodemus]

Point out every error individually and show him some way to improve it. Be specific.

This. Let him draw the conclusion whether or not he has sufficient talent to continue writing on his own.

 

[Coriolis]

@ the OP: I would give the person an overview of my impression -- what elements were good (e.g. tone, voice), and what elements need attantion (e.g. word choice). Then ask him how much and what kind of feedback/critique he wants. He may also have a timeline to consider, and need to prioritize his fixes, but then might want to consider a broader revision later. This is the approach I would appreciate from a reviewer, assuming I had not already expressed a preference. As others have said, be specific with whatever you then convey. What did you find lacking, what was wrong with it, what would you suggest as a fix. Don't waste effort/words on sugar-coating. If your comments are specific, supported, and neutral in tone (e.g. not demeaning), they should be only a help.

 

[Southern Kross]

which I think he's going to send off to a writing competition.

Honestly speaking, I think his writing is sh*t, bless him. He has some great ideas in there but the execution leaves much to be desired. If I were him, I'd redraft 3/4 of it while preserving the core of it, so to speak. I've known him for an year but I only just found out he writes when he asked me to review his story.

Here's my dilemma. He's pretty young (18) and writing is clearly a passion of his. Therefore, I'd like be gentle with him and let him know that he does have potential (he does) but I don't want to be overly saccharine with him and insult his (remarkable) intelligence. How can I tell him the above? How should I? How would you, as an NTJ, like to hear criticism, when it touches on something that you value deeply, phrased? (I don't want to lie to him...)

OK so the others have said similar things but I thought I might describe my experiences with doing this.

Its isn't as hard as you think. I did a lot of script analysis for fellow students in Uni and discovered that its just a matter of mindset. Stop thinking about the fact you don't like it and take the story on its own terms.

Start with a paragraph about what you liked about it. Even if you hate it, there will be something nice you can say. Try to add some personal details: eg talk about which characters you particularly connected with, what situations resonated with you, what specific phrases or sentences you liked etc. The point is to make him actually feel like he did something right and that you understand what he was trying to achieve.

Next cover what you think can be improved. There are lots of things that you disliked that you will just have to resist talking about - stick to the details and avoid criticising the overall ideas or approach (people have more personal attachment to these and often find it hard to accept criticism about them). Use polite suggestions or ask questions about things that don't make sense to you - this will keep it more about helping him rather than it appearing as simply criticism for the sake of it.

Here are some examples of suggestions taken from a script critique I did (which I got a very positive reaction to). While its about a different form of writing, the general approach might help you:

- I think the middle needs to be condensed. After the earlier momentum that is built, the scenes felt too long and lost some of the urgency.

-The Huntington Foundation and Ryan’s family’s involvement in it was pretty vauge until too late in the piece. I got it eventually but this needs to be hinted at earlier.

-I found the first few pages particularly engaging and interesting but after reading the rest I felt they may have set up a inappropriately light tone (in both style and content). This meant, when it became darker later on, I felt unprepared and confused.

- I think the character of Harry probably needs to go - she needs to have a stronger presence and function in the story or she remains unnecessary clutter.

-I would like to know at least a little more about H.S.’s background –the situation with his family particularly. Are they wealthy? Do they fit in with these Country Club types or what? Why is he left alone while they go on an extended holiday?

-The scenes where Tess and H.S. are alone together are lacking in something. They are too long and go over the same stuff over and over again. There needs to be work on building a relationship arc so that great tension between them isn’t wasted.