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View Poll Results: What is your view on religion as an ENTP?

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  • I am Christian and very serious about it

    14 29.79%
  • I'm Christian...whateva

    1 2.13%
  • I was raised Christian and came to my senses

    13 27.66%
  • Christians freak me the funk out, stay away!

    4 8.51%
  • I'm down with the Buddha

    5 10.64%
  • I'm Muslim

    1 2.13%
  • Judaism is my thing

    3 6.38%
  • Athists are better lovers

    8 17.02%
  • Agnostics are fearless lovers

    12 25.53%
  • Dude, what the hell, you forgot mine!

    5 10.64%
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  1. #241
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    What I've read often now still do not understand is the thing that we cant have absolute values without something like God. Couldnt a civilization have the absolute value for example that to kill each others sucks and only derive that by logical means, cause when they kill each other they are dead ?
    Absolute values are absolutus, detached, from our conventions. Whether we agree on them or not, they are there and binding.

    By the way: You cannot derive through logical means that it were wrong to kill.

  2. #242
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Absolute values are absolutus, detached, from our conventions. Whether we agree on them or not, they are there and binding.

    By the way: You cannot derive through logical means that it were wrong to kill.
    That's is and stays way over my head, my religion teacher quitted talking to me about it at some point .

    I mean if you have a tribe of let's say 5 people and one kills another. And it was the best hunter of the tribe. After that the other 4 starve to death because they cant hunt. And they write their experience down as a rule for other generations that killing sucks. Or have it even less complex like one of the 5 killed another one in anger tho it was his best friend and later on regrets it.

    Dunno if thats called learning by logic or experience but why do we need a definition of somewhat like a God to understand these values, if its just enough to open your eyes and live the day to understand them. I dont get that
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #243
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    That's is and stays way over my head, my religion teacher quitted talking to me about it at some point .
    We had this conversation before.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I mean if you have a tribe of let's say 5 people and one kills another. And it was the best hunter of the tribe. After that the other 4 starve to death because they cant hunt. And they write their experience down as a rule for other generations that killing sucks. Or have it even less complex like one of the 5 killed another one in anger tho it was his best friend and later on regrets it.
    Then these are good rules if you think that having enough to eat, living and not feeling regret are good goals. You cannot, however, deduce through logic that these are good goals (Hume's Law).

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Dunno if thats called learning by logic or experience but why do we need a definition of somewhat like a God to understand these values, if its just enough to open your eyes and live the day to understand them. I dont get that
    We do not need god for that. Proof:

    P1: God does not exist.
    P2: entropie believes it.
    P3: entropie is equal to us.
    ---------------------------------------
    C: We can believe it without god existing.

  4. #244
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Hmhmhm well in respect to your knowledge I wont bug you any further, what I always disliked so much about philosophy and religion was that I always had the feeling those people are trieing to tell me how I have to think. And the logic they use often is so basic, whats probably necessary to discuss it, but what leaves to many constraints out of the equation that it is difficult for me to comprehend. Like the last P1,P2,P3;C example you gave, well it makes sense, but maybe in a 2-bit microprocessor world.

    Sorry for asking that again, I can assure you I'll often repeat myself, this tho not your fault . Hope one day you or someone else can explain to me what this really is about. Alone reading that wikipedia article you linked is so impossible to me, I was lost after the first sentence :/
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #245
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Den Wikipedia-Artikel, der eigentlich alles erklären sollte, gibt es auch auf Deutsch.

  6. #246
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Den Wikipedia-Artikel, der eigentlich alles erklären sollte, gibt es auch auf Deutsch.
    Ok in german it's better. Sounds like Te-paradise that article . Wait I'll try it for you:

    He says that to say that "something should be" because "it is" is flawed, because just because "it is" this doesnt mean "it should be"

    That made sense, was I right ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #247
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Religion is your thang, good for you, but to be so blinded by your faith that you cannot perceive of any other reasons beyond a God for why people may have good reasons to elevate love over hate is so deluded.
    They will have other reasons, but according to a materialist framework the fundamental reason underlying all other reasons they may give is simply that random chemical reactions in the brain determine what is good, true, and beautiful. The fight between good and evil would be at it's most essential level akin to two bacteria fighting for territory in a petrie dish.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #248
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    He says that to say that "something should be" because "it is" is flawed, because just because "it is" this doesnt mean "it should be"

    That made sense, was I right ?
    Yes. And no way leads with necessity from 'is' to 'ought'.

  9. #249
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Yes.
    Ok that really made sense. So there is virtually no possibility to say how it should be by derivation of how it is, without adding your own subjective note to it.

    That's kinda depressing
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #250
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Ok that really made sense. So there is virtually no possibility to say how it should be by derivation of how it is, without adding your own subjective note to it.

    That's kinda depressing
    Well, it also means that you are free to do whatever you like.

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