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[ENTP] Christian ENTPs?

What is your view on religion as an ENTP?

  • I am Christian and very serious about it

    Votes: 11 26.2%
  • I'm Christian...whateva

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • I was raised Christian and came to my senses

    Votes: 13 31.0%
  • Christians freak me the funk out, stay away!

    Votes: 4 9.5%
  • I'm down with the Buddha

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • I'm Muslim

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • Judaism is my thing

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • Athists are better lovers

    Votes: 8 19.0%
  • Agnostics are fearless lovers

    Votes: 12 28.6%
  • Dude, what the hell, you forgot mine!

    Votes: 5 11.9%

  • Total voters
    42
A

A window to the soul

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God is with me in all that I do. I owe every success, every joy, every teary-eyed moment of genius, everything! Everything I owe to God!! I have a deep assurance and happiness that remains steady, that would make me rich if I could bottle these special feelings and sell them. Rational? Look around you. Is it rational to say that everything came together just perfectly without a divine creator and poof there you are? God is with us. God is with the baby taking its first breath and the old man taking his last. God is right there outside your window: from the birds & bees, to the beautiful flowers & trees, the mountains, and the stars in the night sky. So if one of us is wrong,... if I'm wrong, I still leave this world happy with faith in something, having lost nothing. :D

What happens if you're wrong?
 

funkadelik

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A rational person can't believe in an irrational thing. Christianity is irrational, so therefore all Christians are not rational.

Who's saying that there are people who are completely, 100% rational? Is that even possible? And Christianity probably has some parts of it that are rational in an insular way (ie. are logical, but not especially so in regard to other theories like those that science provides).

I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but I do have qualms with your argument. It makes a lot of assumptions and tries to simplify something that isn't so black and white.
 

Nicodemus

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Is it rational to say that everything came together just perfectly and poof there you were?
Yes, because the notion that it is perfect or beautiful is nothing but your quite arbitrary interpretation of things that just are.
 

EcK

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God is with me in all that I do. I owe every success, every joy, every teary-eyed moment of genius, everything! Everything I owe to God!! I have a deep assurance and happiness that remains steady, that would make me rich if I could bottle these special feelings and sell them. Rational? Look around you. Is it rational to say that everything came together just perfectly and poof there you were? God is right outside of your front door from the birds & bees, to the beautiful flowers, trees, mountains, the baby taking it's first breath, and the stars in the night sky. So if one of us is wrong, I'll go out of this world happy with faith in something, and risk nothing. :D

That was a joke right?!
I mean, I couldn't have constructed an ironic counter argument to the sheer short sightedness, close mindedness and complete disregard of the current sum of human knowledge necessary to actively believe in these things any better if I had tried.
it WAS a joke. Must have been. :shrug:
I can't tell without the tone of voice.
 

EcK

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O no! She has a history of ... being so.

maybe she's training to become a stand up comedian
I mean cmon, at a glance I could fill a book with all the inconsistencies the sentences hint at. I mean it, I couldn't have condensed an ironic counter argument to western monotheism any better.
 

funkadelik

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God is right outside of your front door from the birds & bees, to the beautiful flowers, trees, mountains, the baby taking it's first breath, and the stars in the night sky. So if one of us is wrong, I'll go out of this world happy with faith in something, and risk nothing. :D

Isn't it enough to love and admire the complexity of the universe for all these things? Why does God have to be a part of it?

I've thought about how the idea of God makes a lot of people happy and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but God isn't necessary to illicit such an emotion.
 

freeeekyyy

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A rational person can't believe in an irrational thing. Christianity is irrational, so therefore all Christians are not rational.

Stating a thing does not make it so. Explain your position.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I would also point out that believing in the unknown is not irrational, it's simply seen as ignorant, which in itself is way too subjective to actually qualify. No one knows and as of such no one (I am aware of my hypocrisy) can say that the others argument is inherently wrong. Agnosticism does seem to be the best way to handle these situations whether you are atheistic or theistic.
 

EcK

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God is with me in all that I do
pretty but unsubstanciated. Also if god is with everyone and that explains why nobody sees every damn effect to It\Him\Her then there's no point in thinking 'he' makes you special or should feel special for not getting any particular attention.
I owe every success, every joy, every teary-eyed moment of genius, everything! Everything I owe to God!!
unsubstanciated, again. And it'd also mean that you and humanity owes it all the pain, death and suffering. I'm not sure why It should be thanked for 'good things' and never blamed for all the 'bad'.

I have a deep assurance and happiness that remains steady, that would make me rich if I could bottle these special feelings and sell them.
I don't see how the way you feel is supposed to prove anything about your supposed Dad-In-The-Sky anymore than the allucinations of a madman prove that there are really ants crawling under his skin.

Rational? Look around you. Is it rational to say that everything came together just perfectly and poof there you were?
Not if you don't understand statistics I guess.
God is right outside of your front door from the birds & bees, to the beautiful flowers, trees, mountains, the baby taking it's first breath, and the stars in the night sky.
Agaain. Unsubstanciated. That's not worth any more than claiming random things about people you don't know. It's pure noise and no data hint at any 'God' in any of the places you mentioned. Also it'd mean that god is in poo and gang rapers and murderers and the Iroshima Bomb...
So if one of us is wrong, I'll go out of this world happy with faith in something, and risk nothing.
Given that nobody ever found any substanciable data for life after death or any kind of 'supernatural' realm and that I'd assume that, living in the same human world and universe you and I should have access to roughly the same data it's far more likely that you'll die, and rot and your carbon will cycle through earth if it's not confined and so on. Also 'risk nothing' is silly. Whenever you have two choices and base your action on the fact that you expect to get one face of the coin rather than another you take a risk. Whenever there is choice there is risk, it's a consequence of any system in which the possible states are >1 assuming free will and awareness exist.

Also, you don't take into account the fact that the possibilities are not balanced. It's like saying 'I'm going to go live in a cave for all my life in the eventuality that a hypothetical god will eventually bring me back to youth and make me the richest man on earth on the eve of my death! I risk nothing'
Or "why work when there's a Lottery ?"
Which leads me back to the point about a poor understanding of statistics.
 

EcK

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Stating a thing does not make it so. Explain your position.

You mean like believing in something that isn't self consistent, nor necessary, which existence no data backs and actually make any thing it claims to explain more difficult to explain?
 

freeeekyyy

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You mean like believing in something that isn't self consistent, nor necessary, which existence no data backs and actually make any thing it claims to explain more difficult to explain?

You do realize that you aren't doing any better here, right?
 

Beorn

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Isn't it enough to love and admire the complexity of the universe for all these things? Why does God have to be a part of it?

I've thought about how the idea of God makes a lot of people happy and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but God isn't necessary to illicit such an emotion.

But, without God there is no reason to love or admire anything... everything just is. Without God all value judgements (including what is beautiful) are completely subjective and just the result of chemical reactions in the human brain. Nothing more.

You mean like believing in something that isn't self consistent, nor necessary, which existence no data backs and actually make any thing it claims to explain more difficult to explain?


Eck I explained why you are wrong about this here but you ignored me and never responded.
 

EcK

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You do realize that you aren't doing any better here, right?
Whatever you say Jimmy.

Eck I explained why you are wrong about this here but you ignored me and never responded.
Frankly.. I was trying to be nice.I didn't feel like taking 15 minutes answering it and then the counter answer etc. because I wasn't interested in it enough and being dismissive and hasty in my answer wasn't what I wanted, some points were worth arguing about but the overall structure sounded like intuively leaping to the answer you wanted and then making up the logic for it. But I saw that you did make an effort to give a structured and long answer so I thought I'd let you have this one. You're of course free not to believe me, i'm not trying to display/prove/win anything.
Also one way i expected the argument could have gone would have ultimately ended in attacking the very structure of language to such a degree as to make the very argument meaningless except if I\we took the really long road but that'd basically be a novel.
 

Domino

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The OP is extremely loaded. You clearly have issues with Christianity, and sound closed to the idea of others finding lasting merit in what you have imperially dismissed as tripe.

The definition of faith is hoping or believing in that which is unseen or not yet manifest. Faith doesn't need hard proof, it isn't a science, and it's not "irrational" in the sense of hysterics. A more apt word would be "illogical".

Believing in a better tomorrow, believing in the goodness of humanity, believing in the spiritual aspect of life and the miracle of our world and our bodies is in itself faith. I believe very strongly in God, in the existence of souls and their marks on the world even when their bodies are long gone in the dust, in good and evil. This does not make me hysterical, unthinking, strict or confining. Faith is like seeing the "not" or "and" in the problem, the gap, the void or blank space where something should be, like dark matter. You know it's there, and yet it has no name, no shape, no direct method of detection, and its influence is felt on everything. Even gravity is considered an "imaginary" or vaguely unanswerable force.

People who use religion - ANY belief system whatsoever - to corral, cage, cow, hamper, terrify or neglect is NOT, to me, something spiritual, but more what is called "the letter of the law" and not the spirit at all.

I don't know anything for certain, I don't know ultimate outcomes, I refuse to live my life in fear, and yes, I believe in a personal God that I can't always explain or even fully understand. I weigh my faith against the things I see and hear as proofs, I also take into account that some things cannot and will not ever be explained, I feel the numinous presence of the departed.

There is the "god spot" in the brain. There is a real faith. The balance must be struck by those who care to approach both. A critical understanding is needed regardless of what I think about God or Allah or anyone else for that matter.

I have a religious ENTP friend very close to me that makes me look like a woad-smeared heathen. It's not about type. (AGAIN)
 

Beorn

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I don't know if I can express how dumb this thread is.

We might be able to judge whether a belief system is rational in that it is internally consistent, but we can't stand outside of a belief system and say it is definitely irrational because our judgement will necessarily be driven by our own unprovable presumptions.

It might be true that whatever belief system NT's adopt they attempt to be as logically consistent as possible. But, saying you reject religion because you are rational is dumb. What you really mean is that you find a separate set of presumptions more appealing and prefer the logical construct built upon those unprovable presumptions.
 

funkadelik

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But, without God there is no reason to love or admire anything... everything just is. Without God all value judgements (including what is beautiful) are completely subjective and just the result of chemical reactions in the human brain. Nothing more.

But this is a conclusion based on an argument that assumes that "God exists" in the first place. Until you prove that your statement has no meaning.

We currently have no proof either way that God exists.
 

EcK

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I don't know if I can express how dumb this thread is.

We might be able to judge whether a belief system is rational in that it is internally consistent, but we can't stand outside of a belief system and say it is definitely irrational because our judgement will necessarily be driven by our own unprovable presumptions.

It might be true that whatever belief system NT's adopt they attempt to be as logically consistent as possible. But, saying you reject religion because you are rational is dumb. What you really mean is that you find a separate set of presumptions more appealing and prefer the logical construct built upon those unprovable presumptions.

The issue with that line of reasoning is that 1) you assume that reason go for absolutes when that's actually more generally the view theists have about 'rational people'.
Unprovable would also apply to any of your claims, the difference is, no matter how unreliable the information we have is; models based on some possibly unreliable information (maybe our sense lie or we are manipulated etc etc.) is still infinitely more reliable than claims made with no information backing it.
On a side note, attacking thesis 1 doesn't make thesis 2 true, common fallacy.
 

EcK

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Without God all value judgements (including what is beautiful) are completely subjective and just the result of chemical reactions in the human brain. Nothing more.
And that's bad .. why ?
It's like saying that pedophiles don't exist because I don't like the idea.

Also the whole bit about god being necessary for values etc is silly. Your whole line of argument is based upon the assumption that things can only have one 'function' at a time while everyday life shows that's never the case (same for the link you gave me).
Ever heard about relativity ?

And if one looks at the supposed 'word of God' (abraham based religions) the rules and lessons aren't even consistent with each other.
 

EcK

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There is the "god spot" in the brain. There is a real faith.
Dualistic and so, unsubstanciated. Dualism didn't make sense when Descartes first applied his poor talents at philosophy to try to argue its case and it makes even less sense now.

Real faith sounds pretty but as far as we know it's heavily based on "evolutionary artifacts" such as the "god spot" then there's no meaningful difference. (yes beef, i'm talking in relative terms and assuming it extremely unlikely that domino has access to any future repository of knowledge I don't have access to nor know of)
 
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