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  1. #11
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    Has Seanan decided that s(he)'s an INTJ? If so, welcome to the club!

  2. #12
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Confident self-doubt is one of the most valuable intellectual traits one can hope to experience.
    Self doubt is a function of not knowing. You shouldn't be arguing if you do not know.

  3. #13
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Self doubt is a function of not knowing. You shouldn't be arguing if you do not know.
    "Knowing" is a function of self-deceit.

    Theories are only as such because we haven't yet the evidence to disprove them.

  4. #14
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    "Knowing" is a function of self-deceit.

    Theories are only as such because we haven't yet the evidence to disprove them.
    While I follow your notion, this sounds suspiciously akin to the "reasoning" employed by evangelicals.

  5. #15
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Haha...I like you Mycroft.

    No - I was referring to empirical re-evaluation of existing data using the scientific model of analysis as template.

    Phrenology is a classical example.

  6. #16
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Haha...I like you Mycroft.
    No - I was referring to empirical re-evaluation of existing data using the scientific model of analysis as template.

    Phrenology is a classical example.
    Much obliged. The feeling is mutual.

    I understand what you mean and agree. I'm a believer in science specifically because of the institution of proof through attempted disproof.

    I just don't like the ends some types carry this observation to.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    While I follow your notion, this sounds suspiciously akin to the "reasoning" employed by evangelicals.
    Yes, roll out the intelligent design theories....

    Problem with a lot of people in arguments is that each time they reply they take the argument incrementally away from the original premise. The argument becomes more about winning it than actually discussing the ideas in the first place.

    Arguments are for when you are almost certain.

    Listening is for when you have some understanding.

    If you argue and change your mind often then you are doing the classic F and acting on emotional impulse. Should be less arguing and more listening/ understanding. Thats why I can't stand semi intellectuals - low - xNxx.

  8. #18
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Are any other INTJs here scatter-brained? Do you have random thoughts in your head that race so fast that you have trouble expressing them clearly?
    Absolutely. I'm not even an INTJ, but this applied to me, so I felt I needed to say something. I try to tame them, and they always have a relation to the last point, but essentially, I fire them out so quickly that people think I'm being random. I'm not. I merely have ideas I don't express, and some I do. And my mind works far quicker than my speech.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Problem with a lot of people in arguments is that each time they reply they take the argument incrementally away from the original premise. The argument becomes more about winning it than actually discussing the ideas in the first place.

    Arguments are for when you are almost certain.
    That is a big problem with arguments, when they drift away from the original premise...but sometimes it opens up new ideas, depending on the maturity of the people involved and their willingness to derail. I understand the want of focus in trying to maintain it, trust me, but it can sometimes be a good thing in branching away to capture new leaves of thought. However, arguments need not be made when you are almost certain. You limit yourself to what you already know, not allowing room for error which is akin to not allowing the possibility for learning a new answer for yourself or from another. Even if that other person is wrong or you turned out to be wrong, you can learn from it if you choose to. If your sole intention is to prove your point, thus 'winning' because it's not discussing if there's an argument implicity set up, then that's different. Though, you can still absorb the other person's POV even if you discount it because you may find it useful eventually or can apply your handling of it within your next argument.

    Listening is for when you have some understanding.
    It's in trying to understand that people will listen or try to. Or if you will, you can have some prior understanding and listen further or you may not, entirely your choice. Or you may not have any prior understanding or current misunderstanding but still choose to listen.

    If you argue and change your mind often then you are doing the classic F and acting on emotional impulse. Should be less arguing and more listening/ understanding. Thats why I can't stand semi intellectuals - low - xNxx.
    StereoTypical. Firstly, you can change your mind without having to re/act on emotional impulse. When thoughts become stuck and you can't Te well enough? It doesn't equate that you'll immediately rely on Fe out of frustration. If you have such a classical view on CPs by attributing a single letter to represent Types through their potential behaviours/or cognitive processing, then perhaps you should re-learn. And what is your basis for labelling xNxx as being semi-intellectually-low- or more so than any other mixture as it's implied? Where is your reasoning to support such an idea? Any xxxx can be as semi-intellecually low as you deem them.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night
    "Knowing" is a function of self-deceit.
    I'd say knowing can restrict with self-deceit or it can emancipate with self-awareness. Most people function without self-awareness daily, but not necessarily will they employ self-deceit until they must exert some 'knowledge' (so yea and most likely do it daily too...). When I first read your "confident-self doubt being a valuable trait one can hope to experience", it made me think that as long as we allow the possibility that we may be wrong, we will not box ourselves against new information which contrasts what we prieviously thought correct (not so succinctly worded as your way of 're-evaluting existing data)-- we can allow ourselves the chance in discerning this new info, without bias or little to none. That is when we escape or disconnect from self-deceit, which may have been an unconscous rejection to begin with which became conscious when we felt threatened by some new "unknown" info we've never perceived before or have become aware enough to recognise that it challenges our old "thoughts/beliefs". So we fight it-- But if we allow possibility that we/info can change, we won't need to think outside of the box. We merely won't perceive it any more but we will still be self-aware enough to recogise it as being capable of returning and of self-deceit/lack of self-awareness of existing within others..

    Though, I wonder if I spun my own web using your words as prey. Correct me if wrong or crazy, though I had fun playing with them!

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