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[NT] How to argue like an NT

T

ThatGirl

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Btw the link you edited in doesn't really prove your point, unless INTJs have a tendency to view being questioned as someone being an aggressor. Which they rarely are prone to become defensive of. Since, as in my variation, they seldom fall prey to.
 

Nicodemus

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So we should respect his life, even though he didn't seem to respect the lives of the people he killed enough not to kill them?
I did not say that you should be more respectful of people like him, only that, if you were, he would not have ended up so bad (in prison, that is).

But he didn't choose not to become one.
I am no expert, but I presume one has no choice in this matter.

I'm not saying that being a sociopath is generally a bad thing, but it's certainly not the most effective way of getting your point across (or recruiting support).
Neither is dumbness, so you better choose not to lose your faculty of speech.

Great, that makes him, what, one out of 10 billion?

Gotta come up with something more than that.
Why?
 

Night

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A is not B because it can also be C and D.

*smattering of references*

You are complaining about my introverted subjective viewpoint because of your introverted subjective viewpoint.

*insert snide comment*

*facepalm picture*

This is a fairly accurate depiction of what generally composes the battle plan of the INTJ when locked in debate. To be honest, this is a great example of the self-selecting, quasi-sneer that always seems to typify our type.

There's this implied sense of intellectual superiority as an extension of personal belief that his ideas are singularly correct - even when confronted with perfectly logical counterarguments. Maybe it's the fascist adherence to always being right, irrespective of expense, that gets my goat.

We're a tough bunch to be around.
 

onemoretime

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Because the world doesn't owe you anything. Kaczynski wasn't satisfied with the respect afforded to any other human being - he thought himself something greater. That's why he started sending bombs around.
 

Qre:us

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When being alive does not merit respect, then why should he respect the existence of others?

Then, why should he respect his own existence, first and foremost? He should have offed himself, first. Others are secondary.
 

Nicodemus

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Then, why should he respect his own existence, first and foremost? He should have offed himself, first. Others are secondary.
He should not, but I guess that is where inconsistency would come into play: murder is illegal for citizens but not for executioners.
 

Qre:us

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He should not, but I guess that is where inconsistency would come into play: murder is illegal for citizens but not for executioners.

My response was an ethical consideration, not a legal one. Something can be legal but unethical.
 

Night

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You're also working to objectively clarify an intrinsically idiosyncratic means of behavior - emotional value systems are rarely subject to the lock-and-hammer drumbeat of reason and logical predictability.

I love ketchup. But, I hate tomatoes. I'm aware of this constant. Yet, I'll continue to order my cheeseburgers without one vile, red fruit so I can have extra room for the same vile, red fruit.
 

Athenian200

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Okay, I'm going to try not to contaminate this discussion too much, but I had to reply to this, because it's an excellent point.

When being alive does not merit respect, then why should he respect the existence of others?

Most people respect the existence of others, because they wish to have their own existence respected by others in turn. They believe that by doing so, they make it likely that others will respect their existence because they assume that others feel the same way and are willing to reciprocate.

If he didn't wish to have his own existence respected by others, then his actions make sense. He did what he had to do because of what he believed in (kill those people), and then we did what we had to do because of what we believed in (imprison him). That's all. Society and the unabomber just had a difference of opinion on morality that wasn't easily reconciled, and one of them had to yield. Since society was stronger, it was he who had to yield. So in the end, it doesn't matter if what we did was right (if there is such a thing as "right"), it was what our moral code dictated, because it was necessary to protect people, and we had the power to enforce it, so we did.

His biggest mistake, was simply acting alone. Had he recruited a large enough group of followers willing to challenge society for his ideals (and possibly blow up more buildings), we would have been forced to respect him whether we wanted to or not. He might have even managed to achieve whatever he set out to achieve, rather than just "send a message." One man has little power, but a group is very powerful.

Morality, in a given situation, is ultimately decided based on maintaining power, order, and politics, though we would all like to believe that it's based on something else.
 

onemoretime

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When being alive does not merit respect, then why should he respect the existence of others?

On and on we go around the circle. Ultimately, it came down to one thing, as Athenian said - Kaczynski wanted something done, he didn't have the power to enact it, and instead of trying to persuade people, he attempted to impose it through fear.

It's an issue of sovereignty. We have collective sovereignty. Through that, we as a whole grant individuals certain rights. We also bar individuals from certain actions. That's what I think Night was getting at: humans as individuals (tomato) vs humans as a collective (ketchup).

And just as Athenian also said, the reason for this is that if you don't play nice, the rest of us are going to beat you up. Like it or not, that's reality.
 

Nicodemus

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On and on we go around the circle. Ultimately, it came down to one thing, as Athenian said - Kaczynski wanted something done, he didn't have the power to enact it, and instead of trying to persuade people, he attempted to impose it through fear.

It's an issue of sovereignty. We have collective sovereignty. Through that, we as a whole grant individuals certain rights. We also bar individuals from certain actions. That's what I think Night was getting at: humans as individuals (tomato) vs humans as a collective (ketchup).

And just as Athenian also said, the reason for this is that if you don't play nice, the rest of us are going to beat you up. Like it or not, that's reality.
I didn't know that. Tell me more!
 

Athenian200

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I didn't know that. Tell me more!

Wait a minute...

I think Nicodemus actually won this argument, if I'm reading this correctly.


His intention wasn't to show that the Unabomber was justified, but simply to show that our choice of how to deal with him did not necessarily come from a higher morality than his. Both he and society ultimately acted based on a desire to establish power over others. Thus, in a sense, we behaved very much like sociopaths on the collective scale, while he behaved like one as an individual, which is what was repugnant to us. Nicodemus wanted us to acknowledge a certain degree of hypocrisy, and we've done that.
 

Qre:us

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If a person kidnaps and imprisons another human being against their will, is it hypocritical to give them a prison sentence? If so, what should the alternate consequence for their actions be (if any)?
 

Athenian200

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If a person kidnaps and imprisons another human being against their will, is it hypocritical to give them a prison sentence? If so, what should the alternate consequence for their actions be (if any)?

That's just it. Hypocrisy is natural and necessary. The assumption that there's something wrong with it, or that there is such a thing as inherent wrong, would be flawed. It's all a matter of perspective.

Yes, it may be hypocritical, but that doesn't make it wrong. It just means that it's not necessarily perfectly "right," either. It's just how we respond.
 
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