User Tag List

First 31112131415 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 143

  1. #121
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's just it. Hypocrisy is natural and necessary. The assumption that there's something wrong with it, or that there is such a thing as inherent wrong, would be flawed. It's all a matter of perspective.

    Yes, it may be hypocritical, but that doesn't make it wrong. It just means that it's not necessarily perfectly "right," either. It's just how we respond.
    When is hypocricy ethical and when is it not ethical?

  2. #122
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Wait a minute...

    I think Nicodemus actually won this argument, if I'm reading this correctly.


    His intention wasn't to show that the Unabomber was justified, but simply to show that our choice of how to deal with him did not necessarily come from a higher morality than his. Both he and society ultimately acted based on a desire to establish power over others. Thus, in a sense, we behaved very much like sociopaths on the collective scale, while he behaved like one as an individual, which is what was repugnant to us. Nicodemus wanted us to acknowledge a certain degree of hypocrisy, and we've done that.
    Ya, no. Where it breaks down is that no individual has the right to interfere in someone's right to live. That has to be a collective agreement, based on the country's social contract. The "higher morality" is purely utility - humans must cooperate to live, and to allow murder would make it less likely for people to cooperate. Societies don't have desires - they simply have needs. They also have no moral imperatives - that is the province of individuals.

  3. #123
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 so/sp
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    2,484

    Default

    Is this last few pages some sort of example? I'm not following it...

  4. #124
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    ^ example of how NTs argue. Yes.

    I'm not following it...
    You lucked out. It's not very thrilling.

  5. #125
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    ^ example of how NTs argue. Yes.



    You lucked out. It's not very thrilling.
    Truth.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think Nicodemus actually won this argument, if I'm reading this correctly.
    He did, even though it all started with what was intended to be a joke - because he was aware of the impracticality of his 'proposition'.

    Some seem not to understand, though, that 'impractical' does not equal 'nonsensical' or even 'false'.

  7. #127
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    He did, even though it all started with what was intended to be a joke - because he was aware of the impracticality of his 'proposition'.

    Some seem not to understand, though, that 'impractical' does not equal 'nonsensical' or even 'false'.
    It equals "mu". It is nothing, and has no bearing on the operation of this universe. It's the same sort of tautological pablum as "A is A." It betrays a misunderstanding of what it means to be human, and an attempt to invalidate what is before his very eyes, rather than understand it.

    What is your point? That Kaczynski used force against others, and the State used force against Kaczyinski? Great, we could tell that from reading a newspaper 14 years ago. That society accepts the latter while deploring the former? Anyone could tell you that. Yet, you find this sufficient to declare hypocrisy, rather than delve into the real questions of why the two used force, and why one is legitimate and not the other. You haven't addressed the very guts of the issue. You've barely scratched the skin. For one, what does it even mean to "deserve," and what does it mean to "respect" someone? Beyond that, does the definition of "respect" change depending upon the actor? If so, why is this so? Is that reasoning legitimate? What makes reasoning legitimate in the first place? How do we know that this determination is reasoning, and not a declaration based on another means of judgment? So on, and so forth.

    You only made a point if I accept your premises. As you can see, your premises are extremely questionable, and without justification for those premises, you've satisfied only yourself. It's akin to a six-year-old declaring themselves the winner of a game, and when asked why, the six-year-old answers "because I win." Tautology.

  8. #128
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    And for the record, THAT is how NeTi argues.

  9. #129

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You only made a point if I accept your premises. As you can see, your premises are extremely questionable, and without justification for those premises, you've satisfied only yourself. It's akin to a six-year-old declaring themselves the winner of a game, and when asked why, the six-year-old answers "because I win." Tautology.
    I see how this works.

    INTJs go into an argument "knowing" they've won and exit it "knowing" they've won. The only thing that changes are that they're sporting a few new cells and maybe they have a more present urge to urinate.

  10. #130
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    When is hypocricy ethical and when is it not ethical?
    I don't really believe it's ever unethical. But some people see it as unethical in certain contexts, particularly when it's blatant.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ya, no. Where it breaks down is that no individual has the right to interfere in someone's right to live. That has to be a collective agreement, based on the country's social contract. The "higher morality" is purely utility - humans must cooperate to live, and to allow murder would make it less likely for people to cooperate. Societies don't have desires - they simply have needs. They also have no moral imperatives - that is the province of individuals.
    That's the perspective I would choose in real life, but it wasn't the one from which Nicodemus was making his argument. From his perspective, if something is wrong, it's wrong for the state as well as the individual. The social contract wasn't included in the assumptions he was working from. In fact, I doubt he was making a serious argument... just trying to take the perspective as far as possible to see how others responded. The reason it took so long to get to this point, is that you didn't challenge the underlying assumptions, but kept dealing with one point at a time as it came up, without seeing where he was leading you.

    He was right within the context of the assumptions he was making, but the context he was operating in was extremely limited and unrealistic. Incidentally, it was very much like the Unabomber's own perspective on his actions. Which is why it was interesting for him to take that perspective.
    ^ example of how NTs argue. Yes.
    Well, it's actually a contaminated sample. There's an NF in it.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] How do I become more like an NT?
    By I Never Find Peace in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 08-12-2011, 03:47 PM
  2. [ISFJ] How to tell if an ISFJ likes you
    By DJAchtundvierzig in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-06-2010, 10:39 AM
  3. [E8] How to argue with an 8w7
    By yenom in forum Enneatypes
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 03-17-2010, 04:14 PM
  4. [NT] How to mess with an NT's head
    By Amargith in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 256
    Last Post: 04-15-2009, 11:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO