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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Well, I couldn't agree with you more that control is rooted in fear and insecurity, such as wanting to maintain an organization so that nothing gets screwed up, but doesn't control also come from ambition and the desire to want to get things done -- essentially bossing others around to fulfill one's own master plan? That kind of control doesn't sound like any insecurity.
    Yes, though sometimes it is fear that is driving the ambition. But security is an inherently subjective and debatable concept anyway...

  2. #12
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    I completly agree, intellectually, that controlling one's environment belies an insecurity about one's ablity to control themselves. If we can control ourselves, then we only need to control our environment when it is objectively necessary. The problem is, I feel a compulsive need to control my environment, which means that I am not being completely objective about it, meaning that while I intellectually see the fallacy in this approach, emotionally I don't. The problem thus stems from being out of touch with my Fi, but getting in touch with it is easier said than done.

    Ambition can easily be based on insecurity. There is the fear of not measuring up to a standard of success you have set up for yourself. If you don't succeed, you are worthless. If you don't measure up on a list of job performance criteria, you are worthless. If you don't make x salary in y time, you are worthless. If you can't meet the externally-referenced ideal, which you have set up for yourself, and nobody but you, if you aren't somehow objectively superior so you don't have to feel inferior, then you are merely human - yet in the grips of insecurity if you feel the need to do so.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Needing to control others stems from the inability to control oneself. It may seem like strength at first to control the environment, but it really is a weakness. It is rooted in fear and insecurity. The only thing you've got full control on is yourself. The more you will be secure, independent and self-sufficient, the less you will feel the need to control anything.
    So change the way you think about things rather than changing what goes on around you.

    The less you are dependent on changing the world around you for your wellbeing, the stronger and better you will feel. I've pushed this thinking to the point where I let go of controlling things that "normal" people would feel the need to control. I am one of the most uncontrolling people in relationships. I don't seek to change people. I either stay around them and accept them as they are or just forget about them if they don't have what I need. What's the point in criticizing people? That is based on value judgment, which is inherently subjective. There is no value of truth about criticism of people. I do what I want, and I don't care what you do. You're with me, fine. You're not, so what. We both are as we are, if we're not going to get along, so be it. I don't care if you're better than me or I'm better than you. But I have my own selfish interests and needs, just don't get in the way of them and we'll do fine. I need to get what I want, but if I can't get it from you, I'll just get it from someone else.
    I think we should distinguish between "control" and "lead".

    ENTJs I've found tend not to be "controlling" types- they are more- "This is what I think- do what you will" types in interpersonal relationships. However in groups- or organizations- they made dictate what needs to be done- which is different from the "control" of what the original poster is
    referring to.

    Control assumes that one forces the other to do something that he/she does not want to do to fixate on a determined outcome. Like the kidnapper in Fowles' The Collector, in which he controls his victim by locking her up in the basement.

    I think overall, "leading" is on a different realm and integrates the ideas and opinions and viewpoints of others for the wellfare of the many.

  4. #14
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    For the most part, I'd agree with that. The exception I would make is that, while in relationships I do let the other person be, to a large extent (since I am an independent person from the other), when I get really angry, I will becoming more controlling, and make demands on people (though it's often ponitless, since the other person, at this point, is also pissed as hell, anyway). I do like attention in a relationship, though. But that's not the same thing as controlling them. I don't force attention, but I do push it.

    And yes, there is a lot of thinking of what is for the greater good going on.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
    I completly agree, intellectually, that controlling one's environment belies an insecurity about one's ablity to control themselves. If we can control ourselves, then we only need to control our environment when it is objectively necessary. The problem is, I feel a compulsive need to control my environment, which means that I am not being completely objective about it, meaning that while I intellectually see the fallacy in this approach, emotionally I don't. The problem thus stems from being out of touch with my Fi, but getting in touch with it is easier said than done.

    Ambition can easily be based on insecurity. There is the fear of not measuring up to a standard of success you have set up for yourself. If you don't succeed, you are worthless. If you don't measure up on a list of job performance criteria, you are worthless. If you don't make x salary in y time, you are worthless. If you can't meet the externally-referenced ideal, which you have set up for yourself, and nobody but you, if you aren't somehow objectively superior so you don't have to feel inferior, then you are merely human - yet in the grips of insecurity if you feel the need to do so.
    I agree. It is easy to pursue the achievement of external criteria out of insecurity. These standards become the yard stick by which your worth is measured. Out of your attempts to control the external environment to fulfill them, you become a slave to a system that is out of touch with what you really want. The irony of it all is that you think you're in control, but really you are being compliant to external ideals. That's how some people can end up being at the top of their game while feeling unhappy at the same time. Being in touch with Fi is a good "starting point". As you say, it is easier said than done. It enables you to realize things like "I know what the logical thing to do is, but doing so isn't what I really want".

    Quote Originally Posted by hotmale View Post
    ENTJs I've found tend not to be "controlling" types- they are more- "This is what I think- do what you will" types in interpersonal relationships. However in groups- or organizations- they made dictate what needs to be done- which is different from the "control" of what the original poster is
    referring to.
    Yes. In relationships, ENTJ's are outspoken about their opinions but in the end are not really controlling. It is true that in groups and organiztions, they will dictate more what needs to be done. As you say, it's more leading that controlling.

  6. #16
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    That's a good point about not getting what you really want even though you may be acheiving a great deal of success according to external criteria. The problem is, I don't always know what I want, but it comes naturally to know what the objective criteria are that bring me a sense of worth, and how I measure up to them.

  7. #17
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    Okay so until today this whole thing was going great. My mom has been extremely supportive, I am no longer enabling my dad to control me through "guilt/paranoia/scare" tactics. But my sister doesn't want me to stop correcting her and said that her favorite way of learning is to argue her way to understanding; thats how its always been. Last night we started talking about being "desprate" and shes like "its okay to be desprate when you really have to." I was like "being desprate is not good!" We kept argueing about it, and I eventually just said "why are we argueing about this??? Both of us obviously have our own definition of "desprate" lets just look on dictionary.com" Shes like yeah and then she let it go. Later that night my sisters (ex) boyfriend brought home this movie called delirious. After the guy kept going crazy I was like "Nicole, thats desprate." And she agreed. I was glad, but at the same time I felt like I lost because once again I was on the winning side of the arguement and my sister stood corrected, but she didn't feel "bad" like most people would. Its almost like we're codependant in this way. She says crazy things, and I correct her. She learns something new and I feel victorious, but alone. I know I need to just get better at not letting her enable me, but its really really hard. She tries to convince me of the most irrational things! I know I should give her the benefit of the doubt, but I know her too well, and I think shes intentionally doing it, because of her codependancy. I've asked her to stop, but I'm supposed to not be telling her what to do, so I feel like I'm doing it again! Constantly walking into her little "traps."

    The whole feeling worthless concept is totally right. I was happy and excited that I was actually changing, and the world was working on its own for once. But now, I've just become passive-aggresive. I'm to the point that its not even worth standing up for myself anymore. Seriously some people are being really mean to me and I don't feel like I even deserve respect anymore. I am this close to quitting this because I'm just so desprate to get back to who I was before. I was so happy and everything was great and now I'm just lost.









    EDIT: Okay so I had a good talk with my mom and she just totally reassured me that I am on the right track. I realized that I wasn't feeling satisfied with my achievements today (Getting to school early for the first time, making a slide show, getting an A on my final, and cleaning my car) because the only struggle I went through to get them done was to just not distract myself if I got bored. Nobody had to fight with me to get me to do it, I just did it and I did it in a hurry! I didn't spend any time thinking how I was going to feel afterward. I was left disappointed because I guess I expected that being independant felt empowering and when I didn't see results right away I wanted to give up.

    meanlittlechimp: I'm finding ways to cope with my problem one day at a time. Basically I just need to finish what I start and believe in myself.

  8. #18
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    Great thread!

    I've mentioned that, as an INFP, I'm interested in studying Te (my inferior function) in more detail. Unfortunately I haven't found a lot of self-analysis here at MBTI-C from Te-Dominant types (ESTJs and ENTJs). ESTJs don't post much, and ENTJs prefer to project an image of having their act together. (That kind of goes to the core of what Te is all about, I think.)

    So I'm enjoying this thread about wrestling with undisciplined Te and trying to adapt it to the real world.

    I think as ExTJs become adults, they are realistic enough in their nature that they find appropriate boundaries for determining what falls within their jurisdiction (where they can naturally assume a leadership role) versus what falls outside their jurisdiction (which they tend to dismiss outright as uninteresting or not of their concern). Later as they get older and more mature they start playing around with their Tertiary Se and use playfulness and humor to expand their jurisdiction and embrace more of the world around them (including parts where they can yield leadership to others).

    Eventually they also get a handle on their Inferior Fi as well, though that's harder for an outsider (me) to see. I suppose that's when they turn quieter and more meditative in later life, albeit still passionate about issues that concern them.

    Young, enthusiastic, undisciplined Dominant Te can be pretty overpowering. Just last week I had a run-in at work with a young ENTJ who seems determined to use a work project to do some empire-building and eventually take over the organization. I'm a middle-level executive, and she's fresh out of college and was basically brought in as a temp just to do some data entry on a project. Her project has little or nothing to do with me, but last week she stopped me in the hall and told me that I need to get involved in her project, tried to drag me into policy decisions on her project, etc. I blocked her at all turns, told her that her project barely affected me, told her that any policy decisions on her project were outside my jurisdiction, and finally just broke off the conversation abruptly when I saw that I wasn't getting through to her at all.

    In a way, that encounter was both disturbing and fascinating. I don't know whether she was simply immature and blind to jurisdictional concerns, or merely frustrated at being stuck on a minor dead-end project and had made it her mission to build it into something more grandiose by hijacking other people, building a team, and expanding the project exponentially. Probably both. In any case, I get the feeling she's a handful. Sounds like her direct boss can't find enough work to keep her busy and is having to fill her time with busy work. The busy work then becomes another reason for her to get aggressive and try to find ways to expand the project and give it some real meaning and weight.

    Anyway, the point is that immature, undisciplined Dominant Te can become unruly, aggressive, and manipulative. Te isn't synonymous with leadership. If Te-Dominant people really want to learn the bounds and possibilities of their function, I suggest they study real-life leadership scenarios--organizational or military--and learn how their natural skills are best applied in the real world.

    Just as a parallel example, undisciplined Dominant Fi (INFPs and ISFPs) can become self-involved, ditzy, and hypersensitive. Fi isn't synonymous with spirituality or ethics. If Fi-Dominant people really want to learn the bounds and possibilities of their function, I suggest they study scenarios of real-life ethical dilemmas--war, crime, poverty--and learn how their natural skills are best applied in the real world. Otherwise they're just dilettantes spouting theory out of their asses.

    I also think that in both cases (Te-Dominant people and Fi-Dominant people), real-world application of their natural skills will aid them in developing their Tertiary and Inferior functions all the more quickly. In real-world scenarios with real-world consequences, it's not enough to just "wing it" and rely on one's Dominant function alone. Te-Dominant people increasingly realize that they need to understand people in order to lead them better. Fi-Dominant people realize that they need rational tools for objective measurement and analysis in order to deal with fine ethical distinctions on a real-time basis.

    /ramble

    Anyway, great thread!

  9. #19
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    the other day I was about to give up on this, but this is the best thing I've ever done in my life. I am really happy everyday and I have became a lot more social and are making friends really easily. Sometimes I find myself slipping up, laughing in people's faces on stuff I shouldn't, but I am reminding myself to not do it again. gtg
    Last edited by Lindaxo; 03-13-2008 at 10:12 AM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindaxo View Post
    I'm going through one of the most difficult things in my life, being an ENTJ and resisting opportunities to control. I didn't realize how often I do it until I became aware and decided to stop. I want to stop controlling everyone and only control myself. I've really cut down a lot, but I feel disappointed whenever I find myself controlling a situation or a person and I feel like I am letting myself down when it happens. I'm missing out on so many great things in life! I really liked how someone said "can I realistically do something about it?" on another board and its been really useful so far. The only thing is, all my relationships/friendships are stable because I control them. And if I'm not in control, fights happen. I don't know what would happen if I let others control me, but Murphey's Law definitly comes to mind.

    To practive I've:
    Quit biting my nails, avoid enablers, find ways to agree, resist my humorously "obstructive criticism" reflex and ask "how would I feel if someone just said that about me?," instead (even if my clothes are cooler than theirs) *lol*
    I've stopped trying to correct everyone else, and have accepted the fact that I have a serious problem.
    As an INFP, a non-controlling but certainly assertive type, I would say that one of the best things you can do is to give advice and not orders. I'm assuming that since when you are in control, your relationships seem to stay 'stable' that the orders you give are good ones. I would say give advice and explain why your friends should follow it. If they do, great! If they don't, sucks for them, their lives are probably going to take a slightly more sucky path. But it has nothing to do with you, just remember that.

    An important thing to remember is that all people are fallible and be willing to listen to advice and constructive criticism from your friends as well. You don't have to follow it, but people will like it that you listen to them.

    I can definitely relate to the whole, "Damn it. You aren't doing anything right. If you would only listen to me, things would get better for you."

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