[NT] Rationals, leadership, and politics

[CzeCze]

...They must win people over through their integrity, competence and strength.

I disagree with your assessment that ENTJ's don't know how to play the game. ENTJs are very very good at playing the game. At least in the fields of business. When I read that ENTJ was 'the executive' I could totally see it.

I worked with a bunch fo ENTJs (and also IXTPs and IXTJs) in a corporate environment and y'all terrifying. And that works because in certain environments you are greatly rewarded for how competent and terrifying you are in as much how much you can cow the other sharks into submission.

And when success is based on meeting parameters or quotas etc. and people are expected to be cutthroat and/or tough, you aren't expected to care if people like you. As long as they respect you. And they will if and only if you get the job done.

ENTJs politic in their own way, they are very calculating and they base it on external factors, like the targets your are supposed to hit on paper. You may notbe affected personally or emotionally if people like you, but you know you have to get votes so you'll do what needs to get done. ENTJ's also know who are the power players the people you must impress, what is considered prestigious and 'correct', the people you can dismiss because they have no clout. I actually think ENTJ can be very hierarchal and even tyrannical in this way. And traditionally traditional leaders follow a hierarchal power structure and approach.

The fact that the NT makes you care less about people's feelings or how they feel about you personally is actually a great boon in certain environments like the corporate world and I'm going to go out on a limb and say the military.

And there is a lot of politicking that goes on in both realms though it may seem much more straight forward.

It helps a lot in politics as well because it gives you the very tough skin and calculating mind you need to win and stay in office.

I also can't help but read a bit of...pride in the description that ENTJs can't play the political game well? As if there are types that are 'above' politics? Politics gets a dirty name but it's an integral part of life and makes the world go round.

 

[zarc]

In terms of what each type rides on to become influential, I think it is a valid point.

An INTJ, from my understanding, will "ride on" their Ni visions and use their Te in presenting themselves in a logical way in order to be influential in capturing and maintaing power.

INTJ's have plans for power that run so deep that they will constantly be unintentionally pissing people off without intending to. And they will constantly be doing things under plans that will never be fully explained. It's not their fault, it just happens. Every interaction is relative of each other, and this interaction makes INTJ's come off as diabolical. It's not like you can go out and change this tomorrow. This is just the way it is.

You've stereotyped all of them as having plans for power that run "so deep". Sure, they piss people off, un/intentionally. And you assume it's perceived as being seen as diaobolical. They may come off as looking arrogant but diabolical? That word implies the most fiendish or evil way of your understanding their intentions or how you imagine others must perceive them as well..

I understand that they do not think of themselves this way, and that their intentions are not diabolical at heart.

So, you understand that they might not think of themselves this way or that their intentions are diabolical at heart yet you can graft this view onto all of them unfairly when you later claim that you use "diabolical" for their quest for power instead of a "fluffy positive one'??!! As though no other NT can be seen as diabolical? And others would say no NF or SJ etc would be as diabolical as NTs, either. It's just wrongful stereotypes created by misunderstanding one another.

If there was enough time in our world for everyone to explain what we meant, things would be a lot better. But this doesn't exist

Some people need not have things explained to them verbally as it'll be understood implicitly through nonverbal means. That's the nature of most interactions between people, anyway. Though explaining things help but even then, most people don't explain themselves well and that applies to non-INTJs too. It's misunderstanding which breeds stereotypes of others and a deliberate mindset refusing to allow for differences or that they may be wrong in their POV of another person--

I also understand I used 'diabolical' instead of a fluff word indicating power meant in a positive light. This is because we live in a society where we humble each other on our actual intentions... which will naturally cause all unsaid motivations to come off in a negative light. If arrogance was influential instead of humility, I would have used a different word... but once again... we don't live in that world. And I'm sticking with a realist point of view for such a far reaching topic.

Oh, because they wouldn't use power in a positive light that can't be presented w/o a fluff word for them, anyway? That's great of you to understand them all and understand that no other NT could possibly be seen as diabolical either. Not every motivation is kept secret for INTJs as neither is it always exposed within the other Types as well. We all have hidden motivations and we all expose to a certain degree our intentions, some less than others. I speak generally but it applies politically as well. An INTJ may or may not be showing less but I'd think an evolved one would show more as they'd be the ones succeeding better in gaining power as they'd explain their goals instead of just thinking on them privately.

Anyhoo, I'm getty snappy and tired so I'll just ask if you've read Metamorphosis' posts in this thread? He's an INTJ and studying poli-sci. I won't speak for him, so perhaps if he posts, he may disagree with your assumptions as well or he may agree with you against mine. I hope other INTJs chip in to either back one of us or shred us both. But, w/e, I'm out. I can't stand seeing stereotypes whether it's of MBTI Types or of people in RL.

 

[cdal233]

But, w/e, I'm out. I can't stand seeing stereotypes whether it's of MBTI Types or of people in RL.

All I'm saying is that currently in our world, I've noticed this stereotype to exist... as an obstacle in the quest for power.

That's the cliff notes version in a nutshell. I never specified that other types don't have the potential, they do. And certainly not that INTJ's are the only ones with the potential for the worst. If anything, this is a complement to INTJ's, it really is. Real discussions about power tend to scare the most avid realists.


And I've noticed this to be a stubbornly persistent theme in these forum debates...

You are talking about what could be, and what is uncertain.

I'm outlining in detail what you disagree with.


I'm not going to influence you because I'm continuing on the same logical path, and you're not going to influence me because your questions and motivations aren't directed to the core of my argument.

 

[Metamorphosis]

You are mistaken, an evolved INTJ would know how to effectively distribute control of their plans through trusted, highly competent subordinates in order to maintain their power and even more so for their vision which their power is principally used for. If they so much as tried to focus on more than their Ni can chew, they'll bleed their mouths out with Te failure. I could only see that happening through increased stress, though, and even then they'd likely still put on a facade of being "together" but may give it away when they can't predict what's needed to be said. But issues occuring unplanned which will disrupt them into showing their cards? You think they'd show themselves upset? Inside, yes they'll implode with anger/shame, but only if on live TV or in front of others will it be seen as "abrupt flashes of anger"-- but this is also why they'd have chosen skilled people who can handle them into calming down or adjusting their POV if necessary (and accepted by the INTJ) . After that... they'd begin mapping out how to alter the err out in the best way possibly envisioned, if not the quickest way--then again, recall they have others to help them out in that regard They can bounce pretty fast after a stressful period back into the plan, though as they won't let some silly stress/issue ruin ALL that they PLANNED, ha! If you are so bent on them being diabolically clever, I can picture them as excellent Dictators who survive their oppressed people the longest or delude the peoples into thinking they're not being had. And not all Dictators are considered bad, either.....

 

[zarc]

All I'm saying is that currently in our world, I've noticed this stereotype to exist... as an obstacle in the quest for power.

And you've only noted it of the INTJs? Of all of them? How lovely of you to be so picky with them. I'm sure most here will fluff themselves at that compliment.

That's the cliff notes version in a nutshell. I never specified that other types don't have the potential, they do. And certainly not that INTJ's are the only ones with the potential for the worst. If anything, this is a complement to INTJ's, it really is.

Actually, you did not give any of the other NTs the potential for diabolical motivation as a natural tendency, inherent or otherwise, nor anything remotely similar for the other NTs. You might not have specified about the others but why then only specify for INTJs? I would never deny that an INTJ could be the worst fiend in acquiring power but I'd assume that all the other Types have the capability as well-- because they all do, even the most powder puffed NF can turncoat.

Real discussions about power tend to scare the most avid realists.

And I've noticed this to be a stubbornly persistent theme in these forum debates...

You could at least be specific and call me out on it if you believe me doing so. No, you didn't mean me? Well, even if not, I would never deny a real possibility of corruption or threat of power within the political sphere or any other sphere for that matter. Dom Ni can sometimes = paranoia for the future and of people within that future.

You are talking about what could be, and what is uncertain.

I'm outlining in detail what you disagree with.

What exactly have I said that is uncertain? That all INTJs might not be diabolical in their quest for power? I'm starting to become fond of that word, diabolical...curse you! And I adore that you outlined in detail against my other posts but not the last one. I suppose you couldn't or couldn't be bothered to due to my motivations, right?

I'm not going to influence you because I'm continuing on the same logical path, and you're not going to influence me because your questions and motivations aren't directed to the core of my argument.

You couldn't influence me if you tried, in this respect. If you want to remain with your views on others without truly understanding them or showing bias for Types, then your choice. Remain as inflexible as you will. I'm going to ignore the possible insinuation that my logic was nonexistent. Just had to put that, in case you were! I'm bad with subtlety! And a taste at Dom Ni paranoia!

Yes, yes. Morphy, I know you INTJs very well, don't I Type-cousin?

 

[The Ü™]

INTJ's have plans for power that run so deep that they will constantly be unintentionally pissing people off without intending to.

Or maybe it's exactly our intention to get a maximum rise out of others! Why does everyone assume our goal is to take over the world? Our visionary schemes could also just be to shock and/or entertain others!

My vision is to create chaos by any means necessary!