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  1. #11
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Galt View Post
    If everybody is still pissed AFTER you have done what you wanted/needed to do then you failed as a leader anyway. Obviously you made the wrong move. If, once you have power, you make the right move, even if it goes against public opinion, eventually people look back and say "Oh. I guess he was right" and go about their lives normally.

    And they're more likely to just let you do whatever it is you want without opposition next time (perfect for when you round people up and put them in camps)
    How does public opinion after you're already done help you when you gain power? No leader immediately implements all of their plans the first day they gain power, so they have to politic to maintain it.

    Plus, it is entirely possible to implement a plan that helps tremendously in the long run, but pisses people off so much in the short term that they coup you, anyways, before you can finish. And really, you don't even have to be a bad leader for people to want to take you out. That's the nature of having a position of power. Force isn't the only way to neutralize threats to your establishment.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mr Galt's Avatar
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    You have me convinced to a degree, but I'd still like to believe that competence is all you need...I am so naive.
    But sir, your opinion is wrong.
    TANSTAAFL!

  3. #13
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    How does public opinion after you're already done help you when you gain power? No leader immediately implements all of their plans the first day they gain power, so they have to politic to maintain it.

    Plus, it is entirely possible to implement a plan that helps tremendously in the long run, but pisses people off so much in the short term that they coup you, anyways, before you can finish. And really, you don't even have to be a bad leader for people to want to take you out. That's the nature of having a position of power. Force isn't the only way to neutralize threats to your establishment.
    Good example would be Russia in the 19th century. They were desperately behind other nations in industrialization and educated technological developments... and they knew it! Every Czar and his cabinet from the mid-1870s onward tried some way to force industry growth in the country, but every Czar was stymied by short term issues that overwhelmed their ability to implement long-term policies. Keep in mind, Mr Galt, that these folks were practically the very embodiment of autocratic rulers til the very end, and had some very competent people working for them, but the trends of a nation are not so simply diverted, and Russia had too many cards stacked against it for anything but the scything of a revolution, war, famine and a psychotically strong-arm dictator to acheive something everyone knew needed to be done nearly a century earlier.

    Could political acumen have saved the situation? Possibly. But past a certain point (say the Russo-Japanese War?), major upheaval was inevitable. One thing, however, is quite certain: mere competence wouldn't have saved the status quo powers.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I think that the Rationals attempting to become political end up downplaying their strengths in the process. The political strength of Rationals lies in the ability they have of not getting swayed by people's opinons. They must win people over through their integrity, competence and strength.
    I'd agree. It helps in making in making unpopular decisions in the interest of being just. The huge downside is that so many people in politics or power are there for self serving needs. Some people may in fact be schmoozers or kinda phony political people in the quid pro quo use of the system. I prolly wouldn't even have a problem w/this if people spent more time scratching other people's backs than watching their own.

    People who stand alone can often be viewed as a troublemaker or self serving as well. I think to be effective, the rational must also retain some since of humility. It can be a sign of integrity to stand up for what you believe is right in the midst of vocal opposition. It can also be a sign of tyranny to ignore counsel and the needs of others.

    I think self sacrifice is a trait to look for. How this distinguishes from self compromise prolly not easy to identify at first. I think the rational leader would have to endure more setbacks in the face standing on principle. People might disagree but those who are firm in the long run generally receive people's trust. It is unfortunate that in a texting generation, patience has lost its place in the world.

  5. #15
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    The sooner people understand that politics is simply another word for power, the better. For those among you who have studied political theory, you'll know that political theory is the study of power. The classics - Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli etc. - are all about how to run a state.

    I would say that one who is deemed 'powerful' has a natural penchant for politics, whether in the social/sexual arena ("observe how he manages to pull her" or "watch me chat him up [using my brilliant skills with the opposite sex]") or in the office ("I know how to make my way up to the top"). And one can even see how these cases apply to individuals who are not described as powerful; rather they have the capacity or capability to become very powerful individuals. Others simply have an underlying power base, which is not often revealed; you'll probably find this in the likes of the 8w9 in the Enneagram. Best example I can think of.

  6. #16
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    I would say the NT's would play out in a search for power as follows...

    The INTP would be good at helping another who is already seeking power, supplying the logical approach that would be ideal for someone to follow, but not be good at doing it themselves. INTP's don't consciously care about power, and typically feel a bit out of place when they are put in the position of power. Unless the world recognizes pure logic as the most influential path to power, the INTP is forever lurking in the shadows.

    The ENTP would be good at finding the opportunity, but would eventually have to hand off the position to someone else down the road. Keeping an ENTP interested in one thing for long enough to execute power would take a lot of discipline and maturity... while going against their natural tendencies to keep Ne-ing within their environment. They would be successful in power if they find that niche and stick with it, disregarding thoughts of pursuing other possible niches.

    The INTJ would ideologically be the best at knowing how to achieve the power, but they would become obvious with their intentions over a long enough period of time. They would only cover the bases that they see as important for the plan in the moment, which would reveal their hidden, diabolical motivations when things go as unplanned. And most of the time, this would play out. Our world is nowhere near perfect enough for a human mind to continuously be able to execute the INTJ's goals.

    The ENTJ would unintentionally cover their social bases more thoroughly, motivated by their own need for excess social interaction. As a result, others will see that the ENTJ recognizes their existence as a person, whether truthful or not. Also, they would associate the ENTJ's drive for power as ingrained in their personality, coming with the ENTJ as a package. This puts a nice buffer on their approach when things happen unplanned. Without a doubt, this would be the most effective method of the NT's over the long run.

    Contradictory to our natural thinking, power is a numbers game. The ENTJ has the best chance of having a high statistical probability to achieve power.


    Ironically to the INTx's natural tendencies to think, the most obvious method is also the most effective. The quest for power has a sick sense of humor.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdal233 View Post
    The INTJ would ideologically be the best at knowing how to achieve the power, but they would become obvious with their intentions over a long enough period of time. They would only cover the bases that they see as important for the plan in the moment, which would reveal their hidden, diabolical motivations when things go as unplanned. And most of the time, this would play out.
    Why must INTJs have diabolical motivations, even if searching for power? Have you fallen prey to the evil INTJ stereotypes, hmm?

    Our world is nowhere near perfect enough for a human mind to continuously be able to execute the INTJ's goals.
    You are mistaken, an evolved INTJ would know how to effectively distribute control of their plans through trusted, highly competent subordinates in order to maintain their power and even more so for their vision which their power is principally used for. If they so much as tried to focus on more than their Ni can chew, they'll bleed their mouths out with Te failure. I could only see that happening through increased stress, though, and even then they'd likely still put on a facade of being "together" but may give it away when they can't predict what's needed to be said. But issues occuring unplanned which will disrupt them into showing their cards? You think they'd show themselves upset? Inside, yes they'll implode with anger/shame, but only if on live TV or in front of others will it be seen as "abrupt flashes of anger"-- but this is also why they'd have chosen skilled people who can handle them into calming down or adjusting their POV if necessary (and accepted by the INTJ) . After that... they'd begin mapping out how to alter the err out in the best way possibly envisioned, if not the quickest way--then again, recall they have others to help them out in that regard They can bounce pretty fast after a stressful period back into the plan, though as they won't let some silly stress/issue ruin ALL that they PLANNED, ha! If you are so bent on them being diabolically clever, I can picture them as excellent Dictators who survive their oppressed people the longest or delude the peoples into thinking they're not being had. And not all Dictators are considered bad, either.....
    Last edited by zarc; 03-04-2008 at 05:25 AM. Reason: Ah, needed to add more for my wonderful INTJ cousins!

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    Why must INTJs have diabolical motivations, even if searching for power? Have you fallen prey to the evil INTJ stereotypes, hmm?



    You are mistaken, an evolved INTJ would know how to effectively distribute control of their plans through trusted, highly competent subordinates in order to maintain their power and even more so for their vision which their power is principally used for.
    Since this is a thread on power, I'm refraining from getting needlessly theoretical with what 'could be' when talking about different NT types. I'm talking about natural tendencies of each type, not what is possible hypothetically. Does this make sense?

    Yes, an INTP could produce a perfect logical model of the universe and apply accordingly.

    Yes, an ENTP could find countless opportunities, execute, move on to the next one.

    Yes, an INTJ could devise a perfect plan an execute it successfully within their environment.

    But each of these are the minority, and it would be erroneous to think otherwise. Human beings have a lot less control over their lives than we innately assume.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdal233 View Post
    Since this is a thread on power, I'm refraining to get needlessly theoretical with what 'could be' when talking about different NT types. I'm talking about natural tendencies of each type, not what is possible hypothetically. Does this make sense?
    I understood you. My gripe is that you label INTJs as having natural tendencies with hiding their diabolical motivations. Or am I mistaken? And if there is a search for power, is power seen as something bad? You've certaintly made INTJs out to be so with their quest for power and not the other NTs. StereoType--

    But each of these are the minority, and it would be erroneous to think otherwise. Human beings have a lot less control over their lives than we innately assume.
    That's why I said an evolved INTJ (or any evolved Type) will have more control, being better able to execute their plans by using others skills to boost their own. And it wouldn't be perfect either but an evolved person can better amend themselves than less evolved people.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    I understood you. My gripe is that you label INTJs as having natural tendencies with hiding their diabolical motivations. Or am I mistaken? And if there is a search for power, is power seen as something bad? You've certaintly made INTJs out to be so with their quest for power and not the other NTs. StereoType--
    In terms of what each type rides on to become influential, I think it is a valid point.

    INTJ's have plans for power that run so deep that they will constantly be unintentionally pissing people off without intending to. And they will constantly be doing things under plans that will never be fully explained. It's not their fault, it just happens. Every interaction is relative of each other, and this interaction makes INTJ's come off as diabolical. It's not like you can go out and change this tomorrow. This is just the way it is.

    I understand that they do not think of themselves this way, and that their intentions are not diabolical at heart. If there was enough time in our world for everyone to explain what we meant, things would be a lot better. But this doesn't exist.

    I also understand I used 'diabolical' instead of a fluff word indicating power meant in a positive light. This is because we live in a society where we humble each other on our actual intentions... which will naturally cause all unsaid motivations to come off in a negative light. If arrogance was influential instead of humility, I would have used a different word... but once again... we don't live in that world. And I'm sticking with a realist point of view for such a far reaching topic.

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