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  1. #21
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    Herein lies the major headbutt between ENTJ and ESTJ. I do not believe I am stereotyping to the degree you think I am. I am just being honest about the ESTJ's that I have met and experienced. They usually immediately turn me off with their incessant need to be "correct" all the time, as well as their need to tell others how "incorrect" they are. I'm not saying that there are not evolved ESTJ's and perhaps you are one of them, but most of them have an impenetrable barrier that prevents out of the box ideas from seeping in due to prejudices. I find it baffling. I need life to be more open ended.
    The bolded is key. You didn't have that qualifier before. Just wanted to make sure you weren't putting all ESTJs into that box. But you aren't! The thing about ESTJs is, some of them actually have a filter - i.e. they see when it's appropriate to tell people that they're wrong, or correct things that they don't think are correctly done. The combination of Te and Si is a recipe for that kind of thought - i.e. "This isn't right and it needs to be fixed" - but well-developed ESTJs understand that there's a time and place for acting on your Te. That's why I think you're stereotyping more than you think you are; not only is it not typical of ESTJs to be "oppressively commanding", but some of them aren't commanding at all, except when they're upset and they accidentally let their filter down (which happens to me sometimes).

    Some of this is gender difference, I'm sure (because the stereotypical ESTJ is NOT FEMALE), but a lot of it isn't. I know a lot of people on this forum who have healthy ESTJs in their lives who don't have that problem with them. For example, IxFPs who have close ESTJ friends. How could an IxFP be friends with an ESTJ if they thought the ESTJ was stifling them and constantly undermining their opinion? The ESTJ would have to be exactly the opposite of the ESTJs you describe.

    Sorry to be argumentative - it's just the nature of threads like this to turn into attacks on the MBTI type least similar to the forum majority, and that type in this case is ESTJ. Well, not necessarily "attacks", but clear implications that the less represented type is "inferior".
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #22
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    I've got the impression that ESTJ's intelligence differs from ENTJ's intelligence. The Ss rely on experience and knowledge; the Ns on heuristics and problem-solving capabilities.
    There has been a trend in management and in education (I know it from education, being a teacher): to see "learning by heart" as inferior and to teach creativity, problem-solving strategies etc...
    The pendulum is swinging back now, folks! Please don't linger with "problem-solving better than knowledge" - because it's just not true. There have been studies about it. Turns out that the more rote knowledge people have, the better they get at looking up facts (you're better at using google etc if you know what you're searching), the better they get at problem-solving (the more basic strategies you have, the more you can use to solve problems).
    So you need both. And of course everybody uses both. With a preference for the one or the other. If you want to run a company, you need big-picture strategists and you need some middle managers who make sure the screws get ordered and the employees get paid.
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  3. #23
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I've got the impression that ESTJ's intelligence differs from ENTJ's intelligence. The Ss rely on experience and knowledge; the Ns on heuristics and problem-solving capabilities.
    There has been a trend in management and in education (I know it from education, being a teacher): to see "learning by heart" as inferior and to teach creativity, problem-solving strategies etc...
    +1

  4. #24
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I've got the impression that ESTJ's intelligence differs from ENTJ's intelligence. The Ss rely on experience and knowledge; the Ns on heuristics and problem-solving capabilities.
    There has been a trend in management and in education (I know it from education, being a teacher): to see "learning by heart" as inferior and to teach creativity, problem-solving strategies etc...
    The pendulum is swinging back now, folks! Please don't linger with "problem-solving better than knowledge" - because it's just not true. There have been studies about it. Turns out that the more rote knowledge people have, the better they get at looking up facts (you're better at using google etc if you know what you're searching), the better they get at problem-solving (the more basic strategies you have, the more you can use to solve problems).
    So you need both. And of course everybody uses both. With a preference for the one or the other. If you want to run a company, you need big-picture strategists and you need some middle managers who make sure the screws get ordered and the employees get paid.
    Excellent, excellent post!
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    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #25
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    It would mean the 'ideal' way for it is to be somewhere half way between S, and N.

  6. #26
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    It would mean the 'ideal' way for it is to be somewhere half way between S, and N.
    Or at least to use your sensing and intuition equally, and to develop them both. It fits the MBTI idea that you want to be "balanced". I like that ideal! I especially like it, speaking as someone with fairly well developed Ne.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #27
    Senior Member bcubchgo's Avatar
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    I think it really depends on what type of intelligence you need to possess to do a certain activity that would tell you whether or not you need a strong S, and strong N, or a S-N combo. Different tasks have different focuses.
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