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  1. #21
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    The Keirsey INTJ is exactly me. Keirsey is describing the 8w7 INTJ rather than the classic 5w INTJs.

  2. #22
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Technically, the most fitting representative of the 8/7 among NTs is the ENTJ. The INTJs are next to that. This puts them pretty high in general since Fs are not Eights very often, anyway. The STs are the only competition, really.

    I believe INTPs are the type most stereo-typed as Fives.
    Awkward for me since I'm a One, and there are certain regards in which Ones and Fives are directly opposed to each other.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  3. #23
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    The INTJ stereotype tends to be at the 5w4, the INTP stereotype at the 5w6. The 5w4 relies more on insight while the INTP is more logical.

    The 5w6 is more in line with the 5 stereotype in general -- the academic nerdy type. The 5w4 is more of the eccentric crackpot stereotype.

    Here's a better model for the INTJ and its place in the Enneagram:
    • Enneagram 1
      • The sarcastic misanthrope.
      • The self-righteous know-it-all.
      • The bigot who forces others to follow their view of the world.
      • The stubbornly uptight monk who refuses to indulge in animal pleasures (such as sex).
    • Enneagram 3
      • The power-seeking Machiavellian who takes advantage of others.
      • The narcissist who projects the appearance of strength and self-confidence.
    • Enneagram 4
      • The embittered elitist who thinks everyone else is shallow or unsophisticated.
    • Enneagram 5
      • The reclusive crackpot locked in a world of his own conception.
      • The cynical nihilist.
      • The self-righteous know-it-all.
    • Enneagram 6
      • The paranoid conspiracy theorist.
      • The bigot who plans to destroy his object of hate.
    • Enneagram 8
      • The megalomaniac who subtly plans to take over the world.
    As for Enneagrams 2, 7, and 9, I just don't see many INTJ stereotypes that could be attributed to them.
    Last edited by The Ü™; 03-04-2008 at 09:44 AM.

  4. #24
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    How would you trace the 5w8?

    With a pen or sword?

  5. #25
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Changing its existing meaning, because we don't see any real reason why, for example, the 8 is an aggressive, cold-hearted bastard while the 4 is a wimpy crybaby -- why not have the 4 be the evil bastard while the 8 is the wimp?
    The Eight is aggressive because they want independence, and many people throughout their life will attempt to impose their will on the Eight, causing the Eight to react against said wills. The Eight is not cold-hearted; this is a misconception. Rather, the Eight chooses to hide his or her feelings in order to - what the Eight deems - survive. An Eight's being a bastard is merely subjective. It carries no true descriptive use. The Four is neither wimpy nor a crybaby. Indeed, they've often been described as an Eight turned inside out. While the Eight is hardened externally, internally, they are soft to the core. The Four reveals all their emotions to the world, but inside, they are truly hard people who can cope with a lot.

    Since the Enneagram was created by man, anyway, I don't see why it shouldn't be distorted by man.
    Good point. But there's no point distorting something which doesn't need distorting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    The Keirsey INTJ is exactly me. Keirsey is describing the 8w7 INTJ rather than the classic 5w INTJs.
    Absolutely. I know little of Myers-Briggs' INTJ, but they are certainly quite different to the INTJ of Keirsey's model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Technically, the most fitting representative of the 8/7 among NTs is the ENTJ. The INTJs are next to that. This puts them pretty high in general since Fs are not Eights very often, anyway. The STs are the only competition, really.
    I've a question: just how different are the ESTJs of MBTT to those of Keirsey. From Keirsey, I know I am definitely not an ESTJ, but are they any different to MBTT's definition of the ESTJ? I s'pose one argument for them being different is that Keirsey notes that his ESTJ and his ENTJ are lightyears away from each other in similarities, whereas in MBTT, they are in fact very similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    How would you trace the 5w8?

    With a pen or sword?
    Pen. Eights with a strong link to Five are generally intellectuals who use their mind and will rather than their physical strength to gain independence in some way. And obviously Fives prefer the pen, because they are, by definition, head types.

  6. #26
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Technically, the most fitting representative of the 8/7 among NTs is the ENTJ. The INTJs are next to that. This puts them pretty high in general since Fs are not Eights very often, anyway. The STs are the only competition, really.

    I believe INTPs are the type most stereo-typed as Fives.
    Awkward for me since I'm a One, and there are certain regards in which Ones and Fives are directly opposed to each other.
    Hi Magic, where does an INTP 4w5 place, then? Am not very familiar with the Enneagram; suspecting that because I'm in a stressed state, the shadow appears or something...

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    How would you trace the 5w8?

    With a pen or sword?
    With whatever means fulfills the line as necessary at that point in time.

    5 moves to 8 via desire. i.e., will.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  7. #27
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    Keirsey's definition of the INTJ at Lifexplore is much more accurate, but the description by Sandra Krebs Hirsch and Jean Kummerow was even more accurate.

    Not too much a fan of Keirsey's description, he describes it as too much of a military strategist type. I'd rather restructure it as a strategist of any kind. An artistic strategist, for example -- one who methodically plans his artistic visions and then realizes them on paper.

    However, I am a fan of Keirsey's description of his temperaments. I identify strongly with the NT temperament, and he seems to associate it with mildly autistic behavior, indicating that autistic traits are just a personality difference.

    EDIT: I added an INTJ Enneagram stereotype for the Enneagram 1. Maybe I should post it in a blog and add more as they come to me.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    The INTJ that Keirsey describes, because my 8w7 infers I should be an ENTP. However, I am absolutely INTJ.

    The ability to see absolute detail (J) and see the big picture (P) coupled with the NT points to what Keirsey is talking about.

    I've tended to think that I am either the ENTP or INTJ and am trying to be the opposite. I want to be the best at everything. I'd programme my subconsious with conscious suggestions if F was the trait I thought best... likewise F is suppressed in favour of rational and considered reactions

  9. #29
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    With whatever means fulfills the line as necessary at that point in time.

    5 moves to 8 via desire. i.e., will.
    So very true.

    Vestigia nulla retrorsum
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #30
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    The Eight is aggressive because they want independence, and many people throughout their life will attempt to impose their will on the Eight, causing the Eight to react against said wills. The Eight is not cold-hearted; this is a misconception. Rather, the Eight chooses to hide his or her feelings in order to - what the Eight deems - survive. An Eight's being a bastard is merely subjective. It carries no true descriptive use. The Four is neither wimpy nor a crybaby. Indeed, they've often been described as an Eight turned inside out. While the Eight is hardened externally, internally, they are soft to the core. The Four reveals all their emotions to the world, but inside, they are truly hard people who can cope with a lot.
    Not too sure about the aggressiveness. My aggressiveness is only activated by defensiveness. Definitely "Competitive" is an appropriate word. I know that it is easy to appear aggressive if you have your views and are prepared to defend them.

    Yes, non conformance to the accepted rules is the norm. Rules impose authority, and the 8 wishes to make the rules rather than be constrained and subjugated by them.

    The survival instinct I have spoke at lengths about, the classic contingency mode that TJ's operate in seems a manisfestation of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Absolutely. I know little of Myers-Briggs' INTJ, but they are certainly quite different to the INTJ of Keirsey's model.
    If I am honest I find INTJ 5w a weak intellectual. I like science type minds, but my scientific thought is really for change in the physical world and not the investigation of what exists or could. IN effect I see the INTJ 8w almost as a risk taking ISTJ who develops intuition as a defence mechanism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Pen. Eights with a strong link to Five are generally intellectuals who use their mind and will rather than their physical strength to gain independence in some way. And obviously Fives prefer the pen, because they are, by definition, head types.
    I think INTJ 8w types know the value of the pen, but the sword is the ultimate lever of change, the imposition and defence against physical will is the ultimate contingency mode thinking.

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