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  1. #11
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You gotta let your mind wander and think of something funny, when meeting customers. I once laughed my ass of with a group of customers and it was actually because one of them looked funny, they all were kinda alienated and I said I laughed because of a joke I heard earlier . (You got to be prepared to tell a joke then tho)

    Learning facial expression aint too easy, I can understand that. I have no trouble smiling, I am even when looking neutral still kinda smiling, but when I get angry or I dislike something than you can see that in my face too. In fact you can see everything in my face and especially with stupid colleages you dont like or in negotiations this a problem.

    Best way to change that is practice. You gotta make yourself aware in public as often as possible how you could be possibly looking at any given moment. And then practice different faces and see how customers react. If many customers smile back to you cause of a certain face, you found your selling face
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I work with people for years. Whole groups of them, sometimes days at a time where I am their driver as well as host.

    It's a job anyone would say is unfitting for an INTP, maybe that's why I like it though and I do it effectively and successfully. Ofcourse I'm also a terribly good driver, and that's usually enough to keep anyone content.

    I am no extravert, infact, I'm very very introverted, but I always come over as very calm, stable, friendly and professional with customers and I've never heard anything negative.

    My smile is generally just me pushing up one corner of my mouth, but it somehow works for me. It doesn't come off as some sly smirk when I do it at least. So I got that going for me.

    Also, I'm a good actor and can talk with anyone in their own street. For example, one day I'm a die-hard atheist who talks about all the negative aspects of faith, the next I may be a floater between two forms of christianity, interestingly discussing the history of both forms. Point is, I can easily deduce where people stand with their opinions and go with their opinions in order to make a connection with those people.

    Okay so in a way it makes me a big liar or whatever, but who cares about that. They are customers, I need them coming back for more and be happy about our service, so I'll be whoever they want me to be. That's just business.

    To most of our customers I can be myself though, in fact, I've had groups of entrepeneurs, boardmembers of large companies, and such as well, and the above arguement of how I sometimes deal with customers has come up with those groups, and they in turn appreciate that.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mipp View Post
    I have a job that requires me to work with the public. My boss has been fussing at me because he says that I 'never smile' and that I look too intimidating. I've run into this sentiment many times before -- my 'friendly' face seems neutral to most people, and my 'neutral' face seems angry.

    I tried examining my facial expressions in a mirror. I don't use my mouth much when emoting; it's my eyes that change. I arch my brows and narrow or widen my eyes to try to show emotion, but I think that people are watching my mouth, expecting to see big smiles. But when I tried smiling, it comes across as grimacing unless I'm genuinely smiling from happiness. I look very stilted trying to fake emotion.

    What's your experience, fellow INTPs? Do others find you intimidating? Do you come across as angry when you're merely neutral or quiet? Do you also find it almost impossible to fake facial expressions?
    This sounds dumb, but I actualy took a month and practiced smiling in a miror, until I learned how to emote correctly. (Yeah, there's nothing like spontaneity!) I noticed my INTP son also has this issue... any time he tries to smile on purpose, it's utterly fake and looks quite painful; the best way to get a real smile out of him is to make him laugh by saying something funny.

    Part of the issue is that my self image always WAS of this neutral, level, balanced, pensive individual and so the flatness was part of that image. But I realized people were misreading me / not perceiving the positive intent, and I wanted to be able to relate better, so I worked on developing my smiling skills.

    While the mouth IS involved in the smile, a lot of it is conveyed through the eyes. At least, that's how I feel it -- like I'm sending out warn vibes of energy through my eyes, and that drags the smile along with it. It was kind of weird until I got used to it, now it's spontaneous and hooked up to my inner world. And it is the same sort of feeling now that happens when I laugh, so it feels authentic to me.

    It's like before, the connection between face and joy was severed in order to buy time to think through things before allowing any sort of response to come out; all I did was hook the lines back up again. It does potentially mean putting yourself out there before you're ready, and not trying to control so much expression all the time.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I'd like to add that I never practiced trying to look a certain way to people and never to overdo things or make things look painfully fake. Sometimes when someone smiles and expect you to smile back, just feintly smiling and immidiately adding to the conversation is better then to try and look all ESFP'ish or whatever.

    As long as you don't look insecure, you can be liked by anyone in my experience however your facial expressions are.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #15
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I work with people for years. Whole groups of them, sometimes days at a time where I am their driver as well as host.

    It's a job anyone would say is unfitting for an INTP, maybe that's why I like it though and I do it effectively and successfully. Ofcourse I'm also a terribly good driver, and that's usually enough to keep anyone content.

    I am no extravert, infact, I'm very very introverted, but I always come over as very calm, stable, friendly and professional with customers and I've never heard anything negative.

    My smile is generally just me pushing up one corner of my mouth, but it somehow works for me. It doesn't come off as some sly smirk when I do it at least. So I got that going for me.

    Also, I'm a good actor and can talk with anyone in their own street. For example, one day I'm a die-hard atheist who talks about all the negative aspects of faith, the next I may be a floater between two forms of christianity, interestingly discussing the history of both forms. Point is, I can easily deduce where people stand with their opinions and go with their opinions in order to make a connection with those people.

    Okay so in a way it makes me a big liar or whatever, but who cares about that. They are customers, I need them coming back for more and be happy about our service, so I'll be whoever they want me to be. That's just business.

    To most of our customers I can be myself though, in fact, I've had groups of entrepeneurs, boardmembers of large companies, and such as well, and the above arguement of how I sometimes deal with customers has come up with those groups, and they in turn appreciate that.
    Terribly good driver ? *cough* istp *cough* :p
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #16
    Member Pand0ra's Avatar
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    I'm not really aware of my facial expressions. But this does remind me of when I first met my (now ex) in-laws, who found me intimidating because I didn't speak much and 'looked at them funny' I tend to smile more these days but people often say I look miserable when I'm just deep in thought. I'd never like to work with customers, having to appear friendly and cheerful is not something I'm good at it would seem.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Oeufa's Avatar
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    I get that too. My neutral expression looks sad or frustrated (seriously: I've had strangers on the street approach me to tell me to "Cheer up luv, it might never happen." Jackasses), and it isn't aided by the fact that my eye-brows are naturally pretty straight and flat. Ugh. When I was on the debating team in school, I often used to practise in front of a mirror and I noticed that my lip movements didn't always match what I was saying either. Weird (though it might be because I was overthinking it too much perhaps?).

    Anyway, I've learned that practise makes perfect. Like you, I emote mostly with my eyes as well, but I can extend that to my smile as well if I think about it. I just think "smiley" and my face then usually takes care of itself. Usually. It's a pain in the bum to try and keep in mind, and it sometimes feels a bit stiff (like I'm trying to be warm and cuddly like an ESFP when I'm NOT), but people usually respond to it fairly well.

    I have found that people get disconcerted when I watch them with a neutral expression as they speak though, so I also try to have a slight smile or raised eyebrows so as not to appear cold and distant.
    Ti>Ne>Si>Te>Fi>Ni>Se=Fe

    And yes, there are such things as INTPs who overuse emoticons

  8. #18
    Boldly Gone Malice's Avatar
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    I feel like I've had this discussion with my partner (INTP) a few times. It can be a bit of a puzzle when it comes to deciphering his true emotions, sometimes I feel like if he didn't say it, I wouldn't know. :/ I wouldn't know what to say in the manner of 'fixing' this 'problem' because I don't feel you should have to. If that's the way you are, that's simply the way you are. Asking you to be anything more would require you to fake it.

    From a job standpoint, when working with the public in western society it is crucial to have that over-the-top fake customer service oriented politeness. Everyone hates doing it, and everyone on the receiving end knows it's fake but the higher ups DEMAND it for the sake of 'better business.' My advice? If it concerns you, start with the fake smiles. Practice in the mirror, smile your regular way and then push it a bit more until you think it looks like everyone else's. Once you memorize what this 'smile' feels like it'll be easier to put it on when your boss comes around. Then he thinks you're doing your job, even if you don't use it all the time Good luck!

    B| ... B)... >B) <--- lol

  9. #19
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Maybe you should move to Japan. From what I have heard there are considereable cultural differences when it comes to smiling. Smiling with the mouth is supposed to be a Western thing and the so called American smile is the most extreme with a very strong exposure of teeth, etc. Or you go to Eastern Europe. As has been confirmed by several Eastern European members (and personal experience) in some other thread, they hardly ever smile in public.

    This might be one of the perks of being a female, but as far as I know nobody ever complained about my smile or lack thereof. I just put a mental switch on "be friendly" when I'm surrounded by people and then the facial expression ajusts to that. Once in a while I am asked if I am bored or tired though, either because it is easily recognizable when I am mentally drifting off or because people expect a more expressive reaction to what they are telling me.

    If anything I have the reverse problem, in that I find constant smiles quite unnerving: I have two friends, one of them an INTJ, who always smile for no apparent reason (and not because he is thinking of something funny he doesn't share either, I'm pretty sure of that). The non-INTJ gives off a vibe of smirking at those around him although he swears he's not and the INTJ has this very particular smile (maybe it's also cultural, he's American) I mainly know from movies. My suspicion is that he consciously or unconsciously learned it at some point as way to fit in more smoothly. Just a hinch.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #20
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Maybe you should try to smile more.

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