[INTJ] INTJs; Inferior Se; And Horrible Taste in Automobiles...

[Nicodemus]

Last night I was watching the Ghost in the Shell and the lifelessness of the animated characters really creeped me out.

I am sure Zarathustra told you why, despite (and because of) its lifelessness, it is still a good film.

I enjoy good animated stuff, and yes, I do think beauty can be manifested in human scribblings, i.e. I believe that a painting can be beautiful, but it is representational, if that makes sense.

Do you feel how the ice is getting thinner?

 

[SillySapienne]

I didn't need Z's critique to understand why the film is good one, a very good one.

It was a highly philosophical movie, as if the title itself doesn't give that one away.

Some of the visual effects were stunning, too.

It was a good film.

Not very happy, though.

 

[Nicodemus]

I still need to see the sequel.

 

[SillySapienne]

Back on topic...

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jni0Rq8FZs&feature=related"]Truck make money[/YOUTUBE]

 

[SillySapienne]

I still need to see the sequel.

T'was good, too.

I think I actually enjoyed it more than the first, oddly enough.

 

[SillySapienne]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzj-vb7Lj0A&feature=related"]One of my favorite Documentaries!!![/YOUTUBE]

 

[FigerPuppet]

Crazy southerners.

 

[Zarathustra]

...in fact, I think I'd like him even more if he was more earthy.

Yes, which, from the get-go, is one reason why I think you made this thread.

Of course, you also think I'm sexy (whether you realize it or not), because I'm not the kind of person who would sacrifice my own desires or sentiments about cars just cuz you'd prefer that I have different ones.

We take corners really fast. That's something.

Haha, my sentiments exactly.

Seriously, though, as uumlau pointed out about his car, there are plenty of characteristics of a "nicer car" that you most certainly can and will utilize if you have the capability and desire to do so.

She, of course, doesn't really have that capability or desire, as one would expect, in light of her opinions about them.

It is not the face we find beautiful but the soul that animates it.

No, it can be one, the other, or both.

And possibly more.

I happen to like you, and even your ostentatious car, so you are exempt from the gavel of truth my subjective Fi value judgments.

Fixed.

But who finds a fake plastic smile beautiful???

Many people.

Simply look at celebrity-admirers, or men who fuck sex dolls.

 

[Not_Me]

You're making yourself look like a petulant child, closing his eyes, putting his hands over his ears, and screaming, "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!"

You're throwing a hissy fit because I did not respond to your "formal" rebuttal in post #251? If you think I was trying to escape a unwinnable scenario by refusing to engage you, I'll be happy to oblige. But it will be a waste of time, because this is a value based disagreement. The Logic 101 and beginner's cognitive function stuff might make you feel smart, but is totally useless here. I say it's insensible to dump so much money and emotion on expensive cars. You say it's not.

Any meaningful debate will need to be induction based, as I was trying to do.

 

[Thalassa]

Crazy southerners.

What do you know about Southerners, Euro-boy?

*calls numerous sisters and cousins, plans to burn your house down*

 

[Thalassa]

I like the concept of the Uncanny Valley because I have experienced this particular deep emotional response to the seemingly perfect appearance of something that is not at all what it appears to be.

Is this similar to the revulsion I feel when I see people who have had too much plastic surgery and nothing on them is real - hair color nor finger nails nor plumpness of lip?

It just looks gross and weird to me.

 

[skylights]

driving with the stick up your ass would be pretty impressive, but i would think it would make it kind of hard to clutch



seriously though, sapienne, what is the argument here? people who buy cars because they want them as status symbols are bad people? even if we accept that to be true, it doesn't make anything about the cars in and of themselves bad. not any more so than the fun jewelry we wear or cute shoes we love.

and i mean, if we extended that principle, then burn victims who get plastic surgery are bad too.

and, moreover, a bunch of people have said it already, but - there's no proof whatsoever that even half of the people who buy sports cars do so because they seek status. i'm an auto enthusiast; i like sports cars because i find their looks aesthetically pleasing, their mechanics interesting, and mainly because they're just fun.

look at so many of the people who posted here - they know what they're talking about. they know the specs of the cars and have particular preferences between makes and models and certain attributes. if you were just after a car because of status, there would be no reason to learn all of that. one would assume you'd be more interested in reading tabloids and canvassing private neighborhoods to see what the rich and famous drive.

and there can be a big difference between people who drive to get somewhere, and people who drive to drive. for me, needing to get somewhere is just an excellent excuse to go out for a spin. i don't really necessarily want a car that's a perfect match to my task - i want a car that satisfies my desires for freedom, escape, power, being wild: all such primal human needs and wants. is my car an acceptable substitute for this? no... because my car genuinely fulfills those desires. i feel freedom when i'm racing down the highway with the wind in my hair. i feel power when i master hitting the apex of a particularly tricky turn. i love the full-body awareness and the clutch humming under my foot and pushing the limits of my coordination. i feel like my car is a domain over which i have full control, and one in which i know what to do best - unlike the outside world which is so often confusing and complex and pulls me in so many different directions. and people associate sports cars and sex not because they're both base and lewd, but because they both fulfill both representative and very sensory needs. even ENFPs need to remember their demonic Se.

what i'm seeing this boil down to is a big group of auto enthusiasts who all have certain likes and dislikes. some of us prefer high-tech cars; some of us prefer vintage. some prefer more powerful engines; some prefer better handling; some prefer the ability to trek over diverse types of terrain. me, i'm the kind of girl who likes a sleek, low-profile beauty with a growling engine that i can whip around turns because that resonates with me and makes me genuinely happy. i think my car preference reflects nature too - dark obsidian stones, flat silver lakes, roaring fire, the night sky. you, you're more grounded, you like beauty that is a little flawed externally, maybe a little quirky, with earthy colors, a vehicle that is well-suited to the driving you do. you like that because it resonates with you and makes you genuinely happy.

are we so different?

 

[Zarathustra]

You're throwing a hissy fit because I did not respond to your "formal" rebuttal in post #251? If you think I was trying to escape a unwinnable scenario by refusing to engage you, I'll be happy to oblige. But it will be a waste of time, because this is a value based disagreement. The Logic 101 and beginner's cognitive function stuff might make you feel smart, but is totally useless here. I say it's insensible to dump so much money and emotion on expensive cars. You say it's not.

Any meaningful debate will need to be induction based, as I was trying to do.

Wrong.

This could have simply been a difference in values, so long as you had said something along the lines of, "It doesn't make sense for me to spend a lot of money on a car."

If you had said that, I would have had no qualms with you.

But what you actually did in your first post was:

1. Make the claim that men buy "nice cars" in order "to feel superior over other men."
   
   
2. Make the claim that it is "irrational" to buy a "nice car".

Regarding the first, you made a claim for which you provide no evidence and have no proof.

Regarding the second, as you mentioned, I demonstrated in post #251 that, according your own definition of "rational", you were actually wrong.

The decision might be irrational for you, in light of your "greater goals", your personal utility function, and/or your circumstances.

But that does not mean it is irrational for other men to purchase a "nice car", based on their "greater goals", their personal utility function, and their circumstances.

Also, while some men may buy a "nice car" to "gain a feeling of superiority over other men", that does not come even close to meaning that all men necessarily do so.

I am going to suggest to you that it would probably be much smarter to just stay away from this thread, keep your tail tucked between your legs, and think about how you might want to: 1) stop trying to force your personal, subjective value judgments on other people; and 2) stop making accusatory claims about broad swaths of people when you have no evidence or proof backing those claims.

 

[SillySapienne]

driving with the stick up your ass would be pretty impressive, but i would think it would make it kind of hard to clutch

seriously though sapienne what is the argument here? people who buy cars because they want them as status symbols are bad people? even if we accept that to be true, it doesn't make anything about the cars in and of themselves bad. not any more so than the fun jewelry we wear or cute shoes we love.

and i mean, if we extended that principle, then burn victims who get plastic surgery are bad too.

and, moreover, a bunch of people have said it already, but - there's no proof whatsoever that even half of the people who buy sports cars do so because they seek status.

I do not think we've made a proper acquaintance, this thread concept is just a purging of something I find to be potentially irritating to my Fi.

It would be clear as day if I were dead serious, regarding this topic.

Which I'm not.

No final judgment can be made by someone who drives/owns a luxury car, obviously more evidence would need to be accumulated regarding the person in question to make any character judgments.

I would, however, like to mention a few things.

You say it is the same thing as our wearing cute jewelry and shoes, and I must ask, is it necessarily so?

I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was raised amongst the uber-wealthy, not my fault, just circumstance, and I have never liked those who would use their money as a means of explicitly or implicitly distinguishing themselves as different than others.

I like fun adornments, but I don't like wearing anything that puts on blast how much money I do or do not have.

I don't like wearing my money on my sleeves, on my ears, on my fingers, on my wrists.

I don't like people's "style" that solely consists of wearing expensive designers. LAME.

It baffles my mind how many rich/wealthy women conform and wear the same handbags, watches, jewelry, it's pathetic and sad, imo.

And, I am not even saying that these women are Bad, it is just a weakness, imo.

If you were to know my sisters, and my mother, you would know that despite my love for them, they fall into this trap, too.

Regarding plastic surgery, I think it is a case-by-case scenario, and by no means am I entirely against it.

Would I judge an alleged tree-hugger who has botox up the whazoo, and huge fake tits? Hell yes, because I would find something about her to be inherently incongruent, and hence untrustworthy.

It is not about seeking status, per se, as much as it is about displaying status.

That, if you or anyone else is wondering what I am "arguing" about is what I am arguing about.

It is not my cup of tea, the perpetuation of status symbols.

 

[SillySapienne]

Is this similar to the revulsion I feel when I see people who have had too much plastic surgery and nothing on them is real - hair color nor finger nails nor plumpness of lip?

It just looks gross and weird to me.

Yes.

 

[SillySapienne]

And, of course it is difficult to judge an inanimate object to be good or bad, but do these things elicit emotions in you?

Some things have/emanate social/emotional presence.

No?

 

[Thalassa]

Yes, all of those things make me feel something. The second item appears to be some kind of kitchen tool, so it gives me the most neutral feeling, yet still feels clinical. All of the other three things elicit varying degrees of a negative emotional response.

 

[SillySapienne]

Let it also be known that I know two men, who happen to be my sisters' significant others who LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE wearing and driving FLASHY, FLASHY things.

And, that both of these men are ridiculously sweet/kind-hearted.

Just as I have many flaws, I do think it is my right to view their ostentatious behavior as negative/flawed.

It is by no means the worst thing a person can be, but it often stems from some kind of ignorance or insecurity.

 

[SillySapienne]

Yes, all of those things make me feel something. The second item appears to be some kind of kitchen tool, so it gives me the most neutral feeling, yet still feels clinical. All of the other three things elicit varying degrees of a negative emotional response.

The second item is a speculum.

:horor:

Cold, and very clinical, indeed.

 

[Thalassa]

Oh, in that case, it makes me want to cross my legs! :horor: indeed!