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  1. #481
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    But I am looking at it objectively. I don't even like handbags, so I'm not projecting myself onto the situation at all. If I had $20, 000 to spend it's highly likely that I would buy a safe, hybrid-powered vehicle rather than any item of clothing.

    I just think you're rationalizing the cars because you like them. I think the subjectivity is the other way around.

  2. #482
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Well, an INTJ would pay $20k for a handbag if it worked like a TARDIS ... you know, much larger inside than the outside. Heck, if it could take me back in time to get to work at 8 AM when I wake up at 10 AM, that'd be real sweet, too.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #483
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I think this is a matter of context. That handbag would be way more useful to me than a pretty car ever could be as I live in the middle of town, have no parking space, don't have a drivers license and am female and therefore in need of a handbag every day. And yes, it does help me to be in a good mood to have something I genuinly like with me every damned day.

    So when I decide to spend my money, the handbag will be way more worth it than a car ever could be. When a beau decides to buy me a gift, he'd better well get the handbag if he wants me to be happy and for that to translate into my mood to him. Just saying

    And I'd imagine this probably works the same for a female INTJ...or am I wrong, ladies?

    at Uumlau
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  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I think this is a matter of context.
    Yes, it is a matter of context.

    That context happens to be the utility functions of each of the hypothetical purchasers.

  5. #485
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I thought that Zarathustra was condemning anyone who spent more than their means.

    Basically, if someone bought a car that they couldn't really afford on their budget, that was also bad. I thought that he was defending the right of people with disposable income to waste their money on whatever they like (including handbags), but saying that it was foolish to waste money on fancy things when you have a tight budget.

    If that's what he was arguing, it makes sense. However, if he was in fact arguing that people should buy expensive cars that they want but can't really afford, then that's illogical, especially if he's applying the opposite principle to handbags.

    I really can't understand the kind of language he's using here, though... that Wikipedia page is too confusing, complete with math problems, so I'm not going to assume I had any clue what he meant.

  6. #486
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok, that link is scary..are they seriously quantifying and 'mathefying' desire, happiness and well...feelings?

    That's just backwards, imho.
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  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Ok, that link is scary..are they seriously quantifying and 'mathefying' desire, happiness and well...feelings?

    That's just backwards, imho.
    That's the basis of practically the entire field of economics.

    It's all founded on the philosophy of utilitarianism propounded by John Stuart Mill, Jeremy Bentham, et al.

    Trust me, I had my qualms with it as well, and it's not perfect.

    But if you take it with a grain of salt, and actually study it, it makes a pretty good (albeit, not perfect) amount of sense.

    And as you start getting into a more advanced understanding of it, it actually starts to make a lot more sense.

    It's basically the study of how people make decisions to maximize their happiness.

    And, moreover, how they do so in light of budgetary constraints.

    As you might imagine, such a field of study would be highly relevant to the discussion we've been having.

    It also happens to be one of my fields of study at university, so I'm rather well versed in it.

  8. #488
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Ok, that link is scary..are they seriously quantifying and 'mathefying' desire, happiness and well...feelings?

    That's just backwards, imho.
    Typologically speaking, it's where T and F meet.

    Both T and F understand "money." T likes that it can be objectively quantified. F likes that it measures "value."

    As Z notes, it isn't perfect, but it's about as good a translation between T and F that can be managed.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #489
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I dunno, Z.

    At the risk of inflicting your wrath (and granted, I don't know anything about this field), this sounds like an ass-backwards way for emotionally incompetent people to make decisions about, ironically, a field they clearly don't know what to do with (aka F). Though I'd imagine it would have its uses in todays society..there's no doubt about that. It just smells like a shortcut. A corrupted one, at that.

    @ Uumlau: There are other ways to bridge that gap and keep the intrinsic value F provides. This just sounds like strip-mining to me. Understanding is very much wanted and translation is needed, but there's better translations out there, i'd say.
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  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I thought that Zarathustra was condemning anyone who spent more than their means.

    Basically, if someone bought a car that they couldn't really afford on their budget, that was also bad. I thought that he was defending the right of people with disposable income to waste their money on whatever they like (including handbags), but saying that it was foolish to waste money on fancy things when you have a tight budget.

    If that's what he was arguing, it makes sense. However, if he was in fact arguing that people should buy expensive cars that they want but can't really afford, then that's illogical, especially if he's applying the opposite principle to handbags.

    I really can't understand the kind of language he's using here, though... that Wikipedia page is too confusing, complete with math problems, so I'm not going to assume I had any clue what he meant.
    The first two sentences were exactly what I meant.


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