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  1. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You are right. I was absolutely wrong. It's not irrational 100% of the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    You are correct. I was absolutely wrong. Not 100% of the men care about status.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    OK. I just admitted I was 100% wrong on both counts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Zarathustra, how do you feel about a non wealthy housewife spending $20K on a handbag?
    I think it would be retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Do you feel it's a sound, rational decision as long as she enjoy the purchase?
    No (with exceptions for certain extreme circumstances: she's about to die, owning this bag is her life's dream, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Or do you consider other factors before deciding?
    As I've said many times already, one needs to take into account one's greater goals (your definition), utility function, and circumstances.

    Really, the utility function includes the first and the third, so, by taking it into account, she's, by definition, taking the other two into account.

    I don't believe in living beyond one's means; I think to do so is, by your definition, irrational; I have been arguing from this position the entire time.

  2. #472
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    But the handbag enthusiast is overspending by $19900. The car enthusiast is overspending by $65k. Both are doing it primarily for a feeling rather than utility. Both are making manageable payments. Would both be equally rational then?

  3. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    But the handbag enthusiast is overspending by $19900. The car enthusiast is overspending by $65k. Both are doing it primarily for a feeling rather than utility. Both are making manageable payments. Would both be equally rational then?
    You are my new hero.

  4. #474
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post












    I think it would be retarded.



    No (with exceptions for certain extreme circumstances: she's about to die, owning this bag is her life's dream, etc.).



    As I've said many times already, one needs to take into account one's greater goals (your definition), utility function, and circumstances.

    Really, the utility function includes the first and the third, so, by taking it into account, she's, by definition, taking the other two into account.

    I don't believe in living beyond one's means; I think to do so is, by your definition, irrational; I have been arguing from this position the entire time.
    If she is about to die, you definitely buy ger the bag!! or rent it at least.

    I have a solution to the emissions problem.


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  5. #475
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I have a solution to the emissions problem.
    *snicker*
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  6. #476
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    *snicker*
    Why the snicker?
    Last edited by highlander; 01-21-2011 at 06:44 PM.

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  7. #477
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You are my new hero.
    handbags don't last very long though.

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  8. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    handbags don't last very long though.
    And it costs a lot less than the car.

    I am not a staunch defender of handbags, I just think Not_me makes an excellent point.

    Also what you say isn't necessarily true. A well-cared-for, well-made, designer item can actually be kept for decades and re-sold as vintage fasion.

  9. #479
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    And it costs a lot less than the car.

    I am not a staunch defender of handbags, I just think Not_me makes an excellent point.
    i really love the bottega barcelona cabat. only 500 pieces. too much though.
    i'll settle for the regular oversized cabat in ottone.

    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  10. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    But the handbag enthusiast is overspending by $19900. The car enthusiast is overspending by $65k. Both are doing it primarily for a feeling rather than utility. Both are making manageable payments. Would both be equally rational then?
    First of all, learn what "utility" means when it comes to economics/utility functions.

    Second, when did I say it was rational for someone to buy a car that is beyond their means?

    Third, my definition of a "non-wealthy housewife" does not include one that can afford a $20,000 purse.

    Fourth, learn how much "nicer cars" really cost (i.e., mine starts at about $36,900 and goes up to about $59,550).

    Fifth, learn how percentages work. What is the price for an average handbag? What is the price for an average car? Divide $20,000 by the first and $XX,XXX by the second, and you'll find that the first is far more expensive on a percentage basis over the average of its kind than the second. Assuming the average car is ~$20,000, the "nicer car" I'm looking at is 2x-3x times that amount. Assuming the average handbag is even $1,000 (which is likely a gross overestimation -- you used a $100 handbag, for your example [which is probably much closer to reality]), the "nicer purse" is 20x that amount. That would be like buying, at minimum, a $400,000 car (with extremely forgiving assumptions -- under your assumption, that would be like buying a $4,000,000 car [of which extremely few, if any, even exist, and which none of us are really considering buying]). I can't believe you even tried to compare the two, let alone even think that this comparison would somehow worthwhile, considering, as I've been saying this whole time, it all comes down to whether the purchasers are being rational (i.e., living within their means [i.e., utility functions]).

    Sixth, you didn't even state the income/wealth levels of the hypothetical car buyer. Assuming they are the same as the hypothetical purse buyer (which would be the most rational way to construct this hypothetical [although, by this point, I've learned to not assume that you are very adept with reason]), then my math above would be highly relevant to their utility functions (although, additionally, the % of their income the average person spends on handbags vs. automobiles would also be a worthwhile metric to consider [and would almost certainly point in my favor as well]).

    Seventh, how many handbags does the average woman own? I guarantee you it's far higher than the average number of cars a person owns.

    I could probably come up with more problems with your construction, but I'm certain that will do.
    Are you really this dense? Nice "trap" you just sprung there...

    Are you really even an INTJ? (from the reps I've received, most the INTJs here don't seem to think so.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You are my new hero.
    You know, Marm, considering how you mentioned that you often feel you share the same opinions as this guy, that may well have to do with him actually being an NF...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    And it costs a lot less than the car.

    I am not a staunch defender of handbags, I just think Not_me makes an excellent point.
    Honestly Marm, your positioning on this matter has really made me start to wonder whether, when you guys score low on T, it really does mean that you guys just suck at looking at things objectively. Your F-logic seems to work fine when it comes to personal (Fi) or interpersonal (Fe) emotions/ethics, but, when it comes to more T-based, apersonal matters, often times, you guys really seem to be fucking clueless...

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