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[NT] NTJs...

Amargith

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In essence, I'm wondering if I can use Ne, to prod TeSe a bit :D
 

rav3n

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Maybe this also relates to gender divide. Who's willing to follow whom? :shrug:
 

Poki

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Maybe this also relates to gender divide. Who's willing to follow whom? :shrug:

that sounds like a security thing in regards to cross-gender security. How secure you are with the opposite gender.
 

Kalach

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In essence, I'm wondering if I can use Ne, to prod TeSe a bit :D

You're going to do it anyway, so why not?


The annoying aspect of emergent leadership arrives mostly only when the subjective values that drive it are poorly attuned to, or even unrelated to the person they aim to drive.



("attuned", "unrelated", pffft. Some other verb will express it better.)
 

Poki

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You're going to do it anyway, so why not?


The annoying aspect of emergent leadership arrives mostly only when the subjective values that drive it are poorly attuned to, or even unrelated to the person they aim to drive.



("attuned", "unrelated", pffft. Some other verb will express it better.)

And whats gonna happen when they stop doing it to you?
 

uumlau

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Lol...are they like born with sticks up their asses? :D

Hmm..you ask a good question. I just automatically feel like mucking about when things are too serious, unless I recognize that it's time to be serious and get shit done. And I cannot resist making someone who has a stick up their asses, laugh. It's like a personal mission, I *have* to try. And the best way to do that is to make them go completely :huh: while they're desperately trying to grasp wtf you're on about. And that's unfortunatley where Ne shines :devil:

It also gets them out of their brooding and their being bored as they are distracted. And despite not wanting to, I have a flair for the dramatic and few people are as easily entertained by that and as able to accomodate that as NTJs are, I've found, much to my surprise, btw, considering how serious they can get. They like watching on the sidelines, like a good tv-show preferably with some popcorn :doh:

There is one thing that I think some NTJs might be missing about what Satine is saying, here. When the ENFP and INTJ "get" each other, there's a whole bunch of unstated "getting" where the ENFPs tend to know whether cuddle time or play time or alone time is appropriate. I think she's asking more about what kind of play and teasing. Most of what she's talking about, Ne-style, is pretty much how I banter with my long-time INTP friend.

Remember, ENFPs get their jollies by bringing an INTJ willingly out of his shell: that's their definition of "win." They don't count it as a win if the INTJ slinks off and sulks.

As for the kind of interactions I enjoy, my ENFP and I tend to bounce ideas back and forth at each other. She'll Ne something, then I Ni the result, then she Ne's off of that statement, and we just leapfrog into a weird and wonderful combination of silliness and brainstorming.
 

Amargith

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You have a wonderful way of making things clear, Uumlau :)

Would you enjoy it if she deliberately created a puzzle for you to resolve to reinforce this playtime with each other? And where she perhaps keeps you from solving it instantly by adding complications to challenge you? And, if so, when is the opportune time to do this? What kind of puzzles? For that matter, how do I get you to *act* (Se) upon those puzzles, implementing those solutions, instead of just NiTe?
 

uumlau

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You have a wonderful way of making things clear, Uumlau :)

Would you enjoy it if she deliberately created a puzzle for you to resolve to reinforce this playtime with each other? And where she perhaps keeps you from solving it instantly by adding complications to challenge you? And, if so, when is the opportune time to do this? What kind of puzzles? For that matter, how do I get you to *act* (Se) upon those puzzles, implementing those solutions, instead of just NiTe?

Right now, there's no need to "reinforce" anything, so I'm not sure I would know.

Note, however, that INTJs appear to enjoy listening to ENFP Ne-isms, and ENFPs appear to enjoy INTJ Ni-isms, especially when it's about playing. I think the only time she's become upset/discombobulated by my Ni is in more "serious" discussions where I rewrite all of her definitions on the fly, and she only notices because I'm not quite using the words right.

I suspect that observation might help answer your question: as long as it is clearly playtime, Ne vs Ni is fun. If it's serious work time, and Ne seems to be tugging Ni from its assigned task, or Ni is totally destroying the underlying Si/Fi/Ti underpinnings of Ne, then it's more problematic (relatively speaking).
 

Amargith

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*ponders* you might have a point :)
 

sculpting

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This is what Ni and Ne taking turns in a convo looks like, Ne in red and Ni in blue:

wave.gif


But this is what the convo actually does-the cicrling version-as the convo actually slowly rotates away from the start point:

polcir.gif


When INTJs are tense and sort of anxious and unhappy it seems they dont need Ne. They need Fi stuff. Fi stuff is not cleanly defined material but when 3 it involves mommy holding you and letting you know that what you feel is okay and not getting mad at you for being miserable. Often it means you may need a nap and a hug and to cry just a bit and have me tell you that I'd feel the same way if I was in your place. When 44 it involves just holding you close and kissing your eyes and eyebrows and touching your face. It means being very aware of how you look and why you look and what you are doing and giving you space to not be perky and happy as when you dont feel happy you shouldnt have to act like you feel happy and remolding around you to make that all okay. Fi stuff involves wanting to soothe the other person when they are stressed by holding them. Fi stuff means paying attention to little quirks and things the other person feels weird about, and then respecting that space, even if it is totally illogical because to care for another is to care for them in totality...there are no flaws..just them as a unique beautiful person to be treasured.
 

Thalassa

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Duality.

Can I get an Amen?

This is duality.

An ENFP sees a hard working person and would like to help them, or, I dunno, get sex from them,

:laugh:

but expresses it as would like to tease them. And imagine what "a hard working person" is for an ENFP. That's right, the image that rises up from the primal subconscious of what "hard work" means... an ISTJ.

Now, what would stretch a hard working ISTJ out like he was a long cat? Imagine that this ISTJ is good at his work, is mostly satisfied with it, brings it home with him sometimes because that's just how he works, it's always on his mind, and....

Pfft, I dunno. What does dominant Ne and inferior Ne do when you're sitting on the couch, top button undone and tie pulled down a regulation one inch? Whatever it is, it probably doesn't screw with the dominant functioning of the ISTJ. It doesn't veer his inspection of past and present procedures off into irrelevant territory.

Does it?

ISTJs are boring, bro. It's also a lot easier to get their attention. Must be that Ni dom that keeps you guys in outer space.
 

Thalassa

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Mm-hmm.



By coincidence, I have wondered something similar about pulling stupid Ni tricks on ESPs. Do they freak out or does it intrigue and delight? Who can tell?


I actually recently got to know a pair of best friends, who to the best of my amateur typing ability are ESFP and ENFP. ENFP is easier to talk directly too, but the ESFP somehow gets it better.


And there's some weird synchrony, where I meet my own natural disinterest in blabbing on too far about any given intuition and the ESFPs disinterest in hearing too much intuition. So I switch topics and seemingly the right time.

Or it's all projection. Dunno.

I think it's all projection. Ok - I actually know two ISTJ males right now. One bores me silly, I don't have anything to talk to him about, and the other I actually can talk to, it's very easy, very comfortable on a shallow basis...but try to have a really deep conversation or intellectual argument and I hit a brick wall, it might possibly even mean war.

There's nothing like having the perfectionism and high standards of the INTJ directed at you, but without the intellectual compatibility or intrigue of strangeness.

In sum, ESFPs may be "easier" to get along with on a shallow, every day level for the same reason ISTJs are, but overall they're much less fulfilling, and in the long term that equals bad, not good.

Your theory fails; it's been tested by me.
 

freeeekyyy

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ESFPs are outgoing and fun like ENFPs, but there's no depth. It's just "let's have fun" and nothing else. The upside is they seem maybe a little less flaky, probably due to the greater awareness of their surroundings.
 

sculpting

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I have many ISTJ friends. They are pretty awesome. (One of them is actually gearing up to destroy her ex INTJ boyfriend. "he just thought he could win") Meh. Anyays when not really pissy we have a great time in our mutual Fi-Si loops as we totally get the shared misery. However i tried to explain to my favorite ISTJ that I was very bothered by the sizes of apples and I felt a strange compulsion to understand where one apple ended and the next began in a numerical sense, given that none are the same size-each varies thus how can you legitimately count or distinguish between them? Anything you do will be an approximation. He reply "Do you always think about stuff like this?" Yup pretty much. The INTJ and I have actually had convos about number systems on the same topic.
 

Thalassa

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ESFPs are outgoing and fun like ENFPs, but there's no depth. It's just "let's have fun" and nothing else. The upside is they seem maybe a little less flaky, probably due to the greater awareness of their surroundings.

Exactly. ISTJs can be smart and responsible and pleasantly take control in a non-domineering way like an INTJ, and even have a slightly grounding effect, but over time it feels like there's no depth, like you can just picture a long-term relationship with this person...living with them...maybe even being married...and always feeling slightly disconnected from them, like they just don't get you.
 

Qre:us

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From my personal experience in a relationship with an INTJ, and my non-ENFP approach, and its results:

Do you like a challenge?

Yes, he thrives on tackling a challenge, with the motto that the process is efficient, and the result being something productive [he does NOT like "wasting" time - although, this sometimes, resorted to us debating on what would be considered "wasted time"]

When you've already got a plate full at work, and you're looking for a hobby to do aside from that, to have something *else* in your life...do you like it when someone at that point demands your attention...demands you to focus on them and deal with them? And I do mean that in a good way.

What has worked with my particular INTJ, is laying the cards on the table upfront, first. Meaning, making sure that they're indeed, at that time, "looking for a hobby to do aside from [work]". I never really go the route of, 'you may be saying that you do not need X, but you really do need X.' As such, I'll respect their wish for alone-time to focus, and leave 'em alone, and usually make their environment more condusive to be able to focus more greatly [e.g., them ranting about how many other shit they gotta get done, that's irritatingly on their to-do list, on their minds, and tackling those for them, so they can concentrate on their PROBLEM].

I also go the route of asking if they'd like to brainstorm with me. If they agree, then they throw out all they need to tackle, the limitations that's slowing them down, the frustrations, and I just question and question, from every angle, for them to see their PROBLEM out of their zone/tunnel vision. And for them to get a perspective on it, rather than circling around the issue, in the thick of it. And when the "EUREKA!" moment hits their eyes, I just ruffle the hair and say, "I have a feeling we're gonna celebrate soon." *wiggle my eyebrows and growl* And leave. Them to their space, time, to the idea, its motivation, before it slips away again.

Without fail, THEY seek me out (finally), and their enthusiam (towards me) is lovely and endearing and appreciated. And, that's usually when I like to harness their energy, creativity [I can use Ni for fun now! Woohoo!] and intensity that they're exuberantly wanting an outlet for, by making myself a challenge - and unlike the work stuff, it's a playful and fun challenge. Although, I don't go the bratty route; as, for me, deliberately being so makes me feel ingenuine and foolish. But, I do resist being immediately "tackled" by giving them a run for their money, one-upping playfully - which, come to think of it, can be seen as bratty, in a sense - but, I'd wager we (you and I) manifest this vastly differently.

Although, I understand that sometimes distraction is the best medicine, especially when I see that the stress seems to be crumbling them more and more, rather than leading to a resolution. However, they have to be receptive to the distraction - and that can only be gauged, case by case, situation by situation.

Do you like it if they challenge you to a mental fight, if you will, in which the rewards can be great, but you'd better work for it?

He loves it - but the timing is key. Otherwise, such a challenge is swiftly shut down and not appreciated.

***

Also, if I'm feeling unappreciated, want attention or feeling taken for granted/ignored, I have always laid it out in the open with the INTJ. I do not like situations to build up - I'm very fast to confront inter-personal issues as soon as they appear [my issue is with tackling or discussing long-term issues, but particular incidences are handled swiftly, when it's fresh in both of our minds]. Starting off with how I perceive where they're coming from, how I read their action/reaction/inaction [giving that particular example(s)] and my thought-process that made me reach my feeling that I felt. Although, I have a tendency to state it as a detached observation. And, whether they can understand why I felt that way, and if not, what particular aspect of it they didn't understand or agree with or they think I erronously perceived. And, he does the same [although, it's not very easy for him to do so, compared to me, tackling particular instances/issues, but he's better at tackling the long-term stuff].

Plus, I have stated something similar, a few times, to the INTJ:
"Sometimes, you have needs that need to be respected, but it can happen at the same time that I have my needs, which are conflicting with yours. It's only natural that if one is always being the understanding one, the sacrificial one, such that one's need always overshadows the other's as more "real-world important", inevitably, resentment will follow. I don't want this to turn into a competition...er....conversation of whose need is more legit and why. I just wanna figure out how can we meet each other half way in such moments? What can I do...? What can you do...? What can WE do...?"

^ I save that shit for after, when they're not hassled with work-challenges, when they're relaxed (thus, receptive), to tackle the convo.

***

If being a brat is your thing/way to flirt, then reading your particular INTJ, and the particular situation, and timing it such that brattiness is seen as frustratingly endearing and not a frustrating nuisance, would be key.
 

rav3n

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Exactly. ISTJs can be smart and responsible and pleasantly take control in a non-domineering way like an INTJ, and even have a slightly grounding effect, but over time it feels like there's no depth, like you can just picture a long-term relationship with this person...living with them...maybe even being married...and always feeling slightly disconnected from them, like they just don't get you.
No one ever gets anyone until that person gets themselves. Prior to understanding self, there will be too many mixed messages.
 

Thalassa

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I have many ISTJ friends. They are pretty awesome. (One of them is actually gearing up to destroy her ex INTJ boyfriend. "he just thought he could win") Meh. Anyays when not really pissy we have a great time in our mutual Fi-Si loops as we totally get the shared misery. However i tried to explain to my favorite ISTJ that I was very bothered by the sizes of apples and I felt a strange compulsion to understand where one apple ended and the next began in a numerical sense, given that none are the same size-each varies thus how can you legitimately count or distinguish between them? Anything you do will be an approximation. He reply "Do you always think about stuff like this?" Yup pretty much. The INTJ and I have actually had convos about number systems on the same topic.

I didn't say ISTJs aren't awesome, my grandfather was pretty awesome in his ISTJ-ness; wouldn't want to be married to him, though.
 

Thalassa

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No one ever gets anyone until that person gets themselves. Prior to understanding self, there will be too many mixed messages.

No, I've always felt that way with SJs. There are other people who get me just fine. I get myself. That level of disconnect to me in a long-term intimate relationship though is a nightmare.
 

Poki

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ESFPs are outgoing and fun like ENFPs, but there's no depth. It's just "let's have fun" and nothing else. The upside is they seem maybe a little less flaky, probably due to the greater awareness of their surroundings.

There is depth, you just have to talk to them about the right things.
 
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