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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Duality.

    Can I get an Amen?

    This is duality.

    An ENFP sees a hard working person and would like to help them, or, I dunno, get sex from them,


    but expresses it as would like to tease them. And imagine what "a hard working person" is for an ENFP. That's right, the image that rises up from the primal subconscious of what "hard work" means... an ISTJ.

    Now, what would stretch a hard working ISTJ out like he was a long cat? Imagine that this ISTJ is good at his work, is mostly satisfied with it, brings it home with him sometimes because that's just how he works, it's always on his mind, and....

    Pfft, I dunno. What does dominant Ne and inferior Ne do when you're sitting on the couch, top button undone and tie pulled down a regulation one inch? Whatever it is, it probably doesn't screw with the dominant functioning of the ISTJ. It doesn't veer his inspection of past and present procedures off into irrelevant territory.

    Does it?
    ISTJs are boring, bro. It's also a lot easier to get their attention. Must be that Ni dom that keeps you guys in outer space.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Mm-hmm.



    By coincidence, I have wondered something similar about pulling stupid Ni tricks on ESPs. Do they freak out or does it intrigue and delight? Who can tell?


    I actually recently got to know a pair of best friends, who to the best of my amateur typing ability are ESFP and ENFP. ENFP is easier to talk directly too, but the ESFP somehow gets it better.


    And there's some weird synchrony, where I meet my own natural disinterest in blabbing on too far about any given intuition and the ESFPs disinterest in hearing too much intuition. So I switch topics and seemingly the right time.

    Or it's all projection. Dunno.
    I think it's all projection. Ok - I actually know two ISTJ males right now. One bores me silly, I don't have anything to talk to him about, and the other I actually can talk to, it's very easy, very comfortable on a shallow basis...but try to have a really deep conversation or intellectual argument and I hit a brick wall, it might possibly even mean war.

    There's nothing like having the perfectionism and high standards of the INTJ directed at you, but without the intellectual compatibility or intrigue of strangeness.

    In sum, ESFPs may be "easier" to get along with on a shallow, every day level for the same reason ISTJs are, but overall they're much less fulfilling, and in the long term that equals bad, not good.

    Your theory fails; it's been tested by me.

  3. #93
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    ESFPs are outgoing and fun like ENFPs, but there's no depth. It's just "let's have fun" and nothing else. The upside is they seem maybe a little less flaky, probably due to the greater awareness of their surroundings.
    You lose.

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  4. #94
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I have many ISTJ friends. They are pretty awesome. (One of them is actually gearing up to destroy her ex INTJ boyfriend. "he just thought he could win") Meh. Anyays when not really pissy we have a great time in our mutual Fi-Si loops as we totally get the shared misery. However i tried to explain to my favorite ISTJ that I was very bothered by the sizes of apples and I felt a strange compulsion to understand where one apple ended and the next began in a numerical sense, given that none are the same size-each varies thus how can you legitimately count or distinguish between them? Anything you do will be an approximation. He reply "Do you always think about stuff like this?" Yup pretty much. The INTJ and I have actually had convos about number systems on the same topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    ESFPs are outgoing and fun like ENFPs, but there's no depth. It's just "let's have fun" and nothing else. The upside is they seem maybe a little less flaky, probably due to the greater awareness of their surroundings.
    Exactly. ISTJs can be smart and responsible and pleasantly take control in a non-domineering way like an INTJ, and even have a slightly grounding effect, but over time it feels like there's no depth, like you can just picture a long-term relationship with this person...living with them...maybe even being married...and always feeling slightly disconnected from them, like they just don't get you.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    From my personal experience in a relationship with an INTJ, and my non-ENFP approach, and its results:

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Do you like a challenge?
    Yes, he thrives on tackling a challenge, with the motto that the process is efficient, and the result being something productive [he does NOT like "wasting" time - although, this sometimes, resorted to us debating on what would be considered "wasted time"]

    When you've already got a plate full at work, and you're looking for a hobby to do aside from that, to have something *else* in your life...do you like it when someone at that point demands your attention...demands you to focus on them and deal with them? And I do mean that in a good way.
    What has worked with my particular INTJ, is laying the cards on the table upfront, first. Meaning, making sure that they're indeed, at that time, "looking for a hobby to do aside from [work]". I never really go the route of, 'you may be saying that you do not need X, but you really do need X.' As such, I'll respect their wish for alone-time to focus, and leave 'em alone, and usually make their environment more condusive to be able to focus more greatly [e.g., them ranting about how many other shit they gotta get done, that's irritatingly on their to-do list, on their minds, and tackling those for them, so they can concentrate on their PROBLEM].

    I also go the route of asking if they'd like to brainstorm with me. If they agree, then they throw out all they need to tackle, the limitations that's slowing them down, the frustrations, and I just question and question, from every angle, for them to see their PROBLEM out of their zone/tunnel vision. And for them to get a perspective on it, rather than circling around the issue, in the thick of it. And when the "EUREKA!" moment hits their eyes, I just ruffle the hair and say, "I have a feeling we're gonna celebrate soon." *wiggle my eyebrows and growl* And leave. Them to their space, time, to the idea, its motivation, before it slips away again.

    Without fail, THEY seek me out (finally), and their enthusiam (towards me) is lovely and endearing and appreciated. And, that's usually when I like to harness their energy, creativity [I can use Ni for fun now! Woohoo!] and intensity that they're exuberantly wanting an outlet for, by making myself a challenge - and unlike the work stuff, it's a playful and fun challenge. Although, I don't go the bratty route; as, for me, deliberately being so makes me feel ingenuine and foolish. But, I do resist being immediately "tackled" by giving them a run for their money, one-upping playfully - which, come to think of it, can be seen as bratty, in a sense - but, I'd wager we (you and I) manifest this vastly differently.

    Although, I understand that sometimes distraction is the best medicine, especially when I see that the stress seems to be crumbling them more and more, rather than leading to a resolution. However, they have to be receptive to the distraction - and that can only be gauged, case by case, situation by situation.

    Do you like it if they challenge you to a mental fight, if you will, in which the rewards can be great, but you'd better work for it?
    He loves it - but the timing is key. Otherwise, such a challenge is swiftly shut down and not appreciated.

    ***

    Also, if I'm feeling unappreciated, want attention or feeling taken for granted/ignored, I have always laid it out in the open with the INTJ. I do not like situations to build up - I'm very fast to confront inter-personal issues as soon as they appear [my issue is with tackling or discussing long-term issues, but particular incidences are handled swiftly, when it's fresh in both of our minds]. Starting off with how I perceive where they're coming from, how I read their action/reaction/inaction [giving that particular example(s)] and my thought-process that made me reach my feeling that I felt. Although, I have a tendency to state it as a detached observation. And, whether they can understand why I felt that way, and if not, what particular aspect of it they didn't understand or agree with or they think I erronously perceived. And, he does the same [although, it's not very easy for him to do so, compared to me, tackling particular instances/issues, but he's better at tackling the long-term stuff].

    Plus, I have stated something similar, a few times, to the INTJ:
    "Sometimes, you have needs that need to be respected, but it can happen at the same time that I have my needs, which are conflicting with yours. It's only natural that if one is always being the understanding one, the sacrificial one, such that one's need always overshadows the other's as more "real-world important", inevitably, resentment will follow. I don't want this to turn into a competition...er....conversation of whose need is more legit and why. I just wanna figure out how can we meet each other half way in such moments? What can I do...? What can you do...? What can WE do...?"

    ^ I save that shit for after, when they're not hassled with work-challenges, when they're relaxed (thus, receptive), to tackle the convo.

    ***

    If being a brat is your thing/way to flirt, then reading your particular INTJ, and the particular situation, and timing it such that brattiness is seen as frustratingly endearing and not a frustrating nuisance, would be key.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Exactly. ISTJs can be smart and responsible and pleasantly take control in a non-domineering way like an INTJ, and even have a slightly grounding effect, but over time it feels like there's no depth, like you can just picture a long-term relationship with this person...living with them...maybe even being married...and always feeling slightly disconnected from them, like they just don't get you.
    No one ever gets anyone until that person gets themselves. Prior to understanding self, there will be too many mixed messages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I have many ISTJ friends. They are pretty awesome. (One of them is actually gearing up to destroy her ex INTJ boyfriend. "he just thought he could win") Meh. Anyays when not really pissy we have a great time in our mutual Fi-Si loops as we totally get the shared misery. However i tried to explain to my favorite ISTJ that I was very bothered by the sizes of apples and I felt a strange compulsion to understand where one apple ended and the next began in a numerical sense, given that none are the same size-each varies thus how can you legitimately count or distinguish between them? Anything you do will be an approximation. He reply "Do you always think about stuff like this?" Yup pretty much. The INTJ and I have actually had convos about number systems on the same topic.
    I didn't say ISTJs aren't awesome, my grandfather was pretty awesome in his ISTJ-ness; wouldn't want to be married to him, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    No one ever gets anyone until that person gets themselves. Prior to understanding self, there will be too many mixed messages.
    No, I've always felt that way with SJs. There are other people who get me just fine. I get myself. That level of disconnect to me in a long-term intimate relationship though is a nightmare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    ESFPs are outgoing and fun like ENFPs, but there's no depth. It's just "let's have fun" and nothing else. The upside is they seem maybe a little less flaky, probably due to the greater awareness of their surroundings.
    There is depth, you just have to talk to them about the right things.

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