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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    Good analysis! It reflects what I said about ESTJs' instincts.
    And, that is exactly what they will do: laugh at you for exhibiting weakness. If you keep pressing the ESTJ, they will often respond with "I really don't care." They are not into other persons' ideas. They want to implement their plan, and employees are there to do what they say.

  2. #62
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    And, yes TJs often exhibit violent behavior and most people bow because their job is on the line. I knew a TJ jerk who would go around and say, "you know what, I can fire you," to employees. He would get in people's faces and belittle them. He ran an urban development project that he treated like his little baby. Ideas were unwelcome, you were there to implement his ideas. I would note proposals to solve various issues that were well taken by the developers and planners. He would growl and tell me to shut up.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    And, yes TJs often exhibit violent behavior and most people bow because their job is on the line. I knew a TJ jerk who would go around and say, "you know what, I can fire you," to employees. He would get in people's faces and belittle them. He ran an urban development project that he treated like his little baby. Ideas were unwelcome, you were there to implement his ideas. I would note proposals to solve various issues that were well taken by the developers and planners. He would growl and tell me to shut up.
    Again, General Patton is another good example. He had no problem slapping and insulting soldiers. Alhough he was forced to apologize, he never felt he had really done anything wrong.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    No, I never said that INTPs are superior; we certainly have our inherent faults. So what if I show support for the professor that did not receive tenure. It does not mean I support what she did. She has a history of mental illness. She did deserve tenure based on her research.

    My comments are mainly about the dynamics between INTPs and TJs in particular. As I noted, TJs often make excellent leaders because they gain respect rather easily and they follow through. I used an example from Band of Brothers: Captain Sobel (INTP) lost his position to Maj. Winters (ESTJ) even though technically Sobel did everything "right", e.g. exhibited competence. The ESTJ overrode Sobel and indeed did turn out to be a respected and feared leader.

    And, those characteristics of TJs are for the most part correct. That is why they make good leaders. General Patton is another good example. He did not listen to others even his superior officers (higher ranking generals). He came very close to getting canned several times. He had a powerful will to push his plans through.

    And, I don't feel limited at all. I've always been a very independent person, which has often got me in trouble with authority figures. I did not fail to receive tenure and my prospects are excellent. I have several degrees including a PhD from Ivy League universities. Persons oriented inwards towards ideals often have a difficult time getting along with "doers" like the ESTJs. And, yes some TJs can mature just like some INTPs can mature (maybe you are one of them). This usually comes through facing very adverse situations where one is forced to come face-to-face with one's faults. I've been there. I am not a feeling person, although I understand emotion via analysis and observation.
    That's all fine. I just don't understand why you would make such dogmatic and blanket statements such as, "You will lose your job." "INTP's don't perform well in corporate environments", "TJ's don't take any input from anyone" and the like. Surely, as an Ivy League grad and an open-minded person, you've got to understand that these things are vast generalizations and cannot possibly be true in every situation.

    I'll say it again, I give credence to the claim that INTP's can face some obstacles in the corporate world. I've experienced it, I know what you are talking about first-hand. But, the fact that there are obstacles does not mean that I, or another INTP, can't do well in a corporate position. And I won't lose my job. Sure, "losing your job" happens sometimes so maybe I will lose it for some reason. But, if I did lose it, it wouldn't be because I couldn't get along with a TJ supervisor and he had to fire me. If it was that bad, I'd leave before it got out of hand. I have never "lost" a job because I was unable to perform or excel. Never. And that will never become a track-record of mine. I just don't buy it. You can give me a job as a janitor, a CEO, or anything in between, and I believe that I'll find a way to get the job done. It might not be the perfect fit for me (which we agree is the case with corporate positions and INTP's), but I'm capable and I will excel. Period.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    That's all fine. I just don't understand why you would make such dogmatic and blanket statements such as, "You will lose your job." "INTP's don't perform well in corporate environments", "TJ's don't take any input from anyone" and the like. Surely, as an Ivy League grad and an open-minded person, you've got to understand that these things are vast generalizations and cannot possibly be true in every situation.

    I'll say it again, I give credence to the claim that INTP's can face some obstacles in the corporate world. I've experienced it, I know what you are talking about first-hand. But, the fact that there are obstacles does not mean that I, or another INTP, can't do well in a corporate position. And I won't lose my job. Sure, "losing your job" happens sometimes so maybe I will lose it for some reason. But, if I did lose it, it wouldn't be because I couldn't get along with a TJ supervisor and he had to fire me. If it was that bad, I'd leave before it got out of hand. I have never "lost" a job because I was unable to perform or excel. Never. And that will never become a track-record of mine. I just don't buy it. You can give me a job as a janitor, a CEO, or anything in between, and I believe that I'll find a way to get the job done. It might not be the perfect fit for me (which we agree is the case with corporate positions and INTP's), but I'm capable and I will excel. Period.
    Now, you're speaking like an INTP: I will never lose my job due to incompetence. You are most likely very intelligent and competent; you won't lose your job for incompetence. The dynamic between the INTP and the TJ is contentious, and when the TJ is challenged, regardless of your competence, you will be out. The TJ is tough and ruthless. The quarrel between Captain Sobel and Winters was petty at heart, but Winters was willing to face a courts martial. A courts martial is as bad as it gets in the military (and they are not common).

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    Now, you're speaking like an INTP: I will never lose my job due to incompetence. You are most likely very intelligent and competent; you won't lose your job for incompetence. The dynamic between the INTP and the TJ is contentious, and when the TJ is challenged, regardless of your competence, you will be out. The TJ is tough and ruthless. The quarrel between Captain Sobel and Winters was petty at heart, but Winters was willing to face a courts martial. A courts martial is as bad as it gets in the military (and they are not common).
    And, that is what the perceptive (experienced) INTP does: he leaves before the TJ has the chance to trounce his self-esteem. You see, the self-esteem of the INTP is built on the acceptance of his/her ideas. The TJ generally does not care about your ideas.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    And, that is what the perceptive (experienced) INTP does: he leaves before the TJ has the chance to trounce his self-esteem. You see, the self-esteem of the INTP is built on the acceptance of his/her ideas. The TJ generally does not care about your ideas.
    Now, an interesting facet concerns the female INTP in a corporate setting. I think that women in general, even INTPs, have better situational awareness than males and can adjust more easily.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    Now, you're speaking like an INTP: I will never lose my job due to incompetence. You are most likely very intelligent and competent; you won't lose your job for incompetence. The dynamic between the INTP and the TJ is contentious, and when the TJ is challenged, regardless of your competence, you will be out. The TJ is tough and ruthless. The quarrel between Captain Sobel and Winters was petty at heart, but Winters was willing to face a courts martial. A courts martial is as bad as it gets in the military (and they are not common).
    Why do you keep using fiction to illustrate real life, as if fiction can explain how people interact? Focus on reality. Get out of your head and start trying to understand people as individuals, not type restricted stereotypes.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    Now, you're speaking like an INTP: I will never lose my job due to incompetence. You are most likely very intelligent and competent; you won't lose your job for incompetence. The dynamic between the INTP and the TJ is contentious, and when the TJ is challenged, regardless of your competence, you will be out. The TJ is tough and ruthless. The quarrel between Captain Sobel and Winters was petty at heart, but Winters was willing to face a courts martial. A courts martial is as bad as it gets in the military (and they are not common).
    1. I have worked with TJ's who are not as you describe.
    2. I have had healthy working relationships with ENTJ's and INTJ's (TJ's). Where the dynamic is NOT contentious between myself and them. ESTJ's, thus far in my life, have been a harder nut to crack.
    3. Sobel and Winters can jump off a cliff for all I care.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    That's all fine. I just don't understand why you would make such dogmatic and blanket statements such as, "You will lose your job." "INTP's don't perform well in corporate environments", "TJ's don't take any input from anyone" and the like. Surely, as an Ivy League grad and an open-minded person, you've got to understand that these things are vast generalizations and cannot possibly be true in every situation.

    I'll say it again, I give credence to the claim that INTP's can face some obstacles in the corporate world. I've experienced it, I know what you are talking about first-hand. But, the fact that there are obstacles does not mean that I, or another INTP, can't do well in a corporate position. And I won't lose my job. Sure, "losing your job" happens sometimes so maybe I will lose it for some reason. But, if I did lose it, it wouldn't be because I couldn't get along with a TJ supervisor and he had to fire me. If it was that bad, I'd leave before it got out of hand. I have never "lost" a job because I was unable to perform or excel. Never. And that will never become a track-record of mine. I just don't buy it. You can give me a job as a janitor, a CEO, or anything in between, and I believe that I'll find a way to get the job done. It might not be the perfect fit for me (which we agree is the case with corporate positions and INTP's), but I'm capable and I will excel. Period.
    Good, you've matured. You are not living in a shell. I feel really sorry for the INTP in a manual labor position, etc. They would start spouting theories and analyzing things and just get laughed off.

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