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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    And another good point MoneyTick made, is that so often these negotiations are full of empty demands and rhetoric. And that's what I hate about them.

    "We'll pay you X."
    "No, I need Y."
    "We'll give you X + 1, but not Y"
    "How about Y - 1"

    There's no real substance in a discussion like that. It's just a power struggle and who is willing to give in first and you never know what the other party's breaking point is - the point in which they will say, "Just forget the whole thing. We'll look elsewhere." It's just a huge guessing game. All the more reason that pay should be based on results, I suppose.
    Correct, it is a power struggle that you will lose. You will be replaced with a person who follows orders. A TJ type will make the decision without your input. If they like you, they will go their boss and make the case. Your input does not mean sh.. to them. It is their world, their plan, their office, ad infin.

  2. #42
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    You're a typical INTP getting lost in the what ifs (details). A J has his/her mind made up about you, and there is not a damn thing you can do to change it.
    And what if the ENTJ has made up his mind the Mr. INTPness is qualified for the position?

    As you stated, the ENTJ is interested in getting the plan executed by virtue of hiring qualified people that will get the job done right.

    If Mr. INTPness can get the job done right, and be an accessory to the organization's goals - wouldn't it make sense for the ENTJ to hire him/her?

    If INTPness can prove that he/she is valuable, then it would make perfect sense to have him be a part of the organization.

    Pleading for mercy will not move an NTJ, revealing potential value for the NTJs goals will.
    got chaos?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    Correct, it is a power struggle that you will lose. You will be replaced with a person who follows orders. A TJ type will make the decision without your input. If they like you, they will go their boss and make the case. Your input does not mean sh.. to them. It is their world, their plan, their office, ad infin.
    INTPs think that intelligence and competence will get them what they desire, but that is just not true in most settings. INTPs are better off as entrepreneurs, programmers, scientists, professors, etc. Flee from the corporate setting unless you're the owner.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    It is rarely about one's experience and/or competence when dealing with the TJ; they have a plan and expectations and you are there to take orders. You're a typical INTP, running all the what ifs in your mind. Now, you can negotiate with Fs, they actually care about people's lives, etc. I would leave the job before your boss trashes your self esteem.
    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    You're a typical INTP getting lost in the what ifs (details). A J has his/her mind made up about you, and there is not a damn thing you can do to change it. I am an INTP and my wife is a ENTJ (property manager). The TJs are always moving personnel around (hiring and firing) in pursuit of the perfect implementation of their plans. You are nothing but a worthless cog to your boss regardless of your experience and competence. He/She will replace you with someone more of their liking. Your replacement may very well be far less competent and/or experienced, but what matters is that they take orders.
    You don't understand NTJs very well. If you believe what you've spouted, your belief stems from a mistyping of your wife. E/ISTJ. Either that or you've bought into the Kiersey Kook-aid.

    We E/INTJs come in all kinds of sizes and shapes, same as INTPs. Clone behaviour is the byproduct of a simple mind.

  5. #45
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    INTPs are not well adapted to the corporate world or office settings. INTPs always question authority, even if the questioning is not overt or even intended. What matters most in a corporate/office setting is fit.
    We're a little bit "on the fringe" - I will grant you that. We often feel confined by corporate "structure". I'll even grant you that the corporate world may not be the single best fit for us career wise. But, that doesn't mean that we are incapable of functioning (and functioning well) in that setting. We are flexible, competent people who can do what we put our mind to. You give INTP's a bad name by implying that we can't function in certain settings. We can function if we choose to function - and at a very high level to boot.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    And what if the ENTJ has made up his mind the Mr. INTPness is qualified for the position?

    As you stated, the ENTJ is interested in getting the plan executed by virtue of hiring qualified people that will get the job done right.

    If Mr. INTPness can get the job done right, and be an accessory to the organization's goals - wouldn't it make sense for the ENTJ to hire him/her?

    If INTPness can prove that he/she is valuable, then it would make perfect sense to have him be a part of the organization.
    The I/ENTJ already knows exactly how to execute their plan; they do not want input. Competence and/or experience means little to them. They will have a map laid out and the employee is there to do what is noted. TJs work very long hours going over details and controlling every aspect of their plan. While Mr. INTPness may be very well qualified and deserving of a raise, he almost certainly comes on as an employee who questions the boss (even implicitly by adding input).

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    You don't understand NTJs very well. If you believe what you've spouted, your belief stems from a mistyping of your wife. E/ISTJ. Either that or you've bought into the Kiersey Kook-aid.

    We E/INTJs come in all kinds of sizes and shapes, same as INTPs. Clone behaviour is the byproduct of a simple mind.
    No, the typologies cannot be fitted into all sizes and shapes. That undermines the purpose of the typologies.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    We're a little bit "on the fringe" - I will grant you that. We often feel confined by corporate "structure". I'll even grant you that the corporate world may not be the single best fit for us career wise. But, that doesn't mean that we are incapable of functioning (and functioning well) in that setting. We are flexible, competent people who can do what we put our mind to. You give INTP's a bad name by implying that we can't function in certain settings. We can function if we choose to function - and at a very high level to boot.
    INTPs do not function well in corporate settings. I have the experience of working in both corporate and academic settings. I am working as a professor now, but I did work as a urban planner in both private and government settings.

  9. #49
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    The I/ENTJ already knows exactly how to execute their plan; they do not want input. Competence and/or experience means little to them. They will have a map laid out and the employee is there to do what is noted. TJs work very long hours going over details and controlling every aspect of their plan. While Mr. INTPness may be very well qualified and deserving of a raise, he almost certainly comes on as an employee who questions the boss (even implicitly by adding input).
    I disagree.

    I am always eager to hear what other people have to say about my plans. Albeit, I usually seek the council of other NTs since other types may get too emotional or creative about a plan.

    The totalitarian steamrollling king of the hill type of manager would be an INTJ. Whereby, the INTJs plans are not open for interpretation and any discourse would be settled with a "just shut up and do it."

    I have to agree that yes, I do want things done my way - but I will always embrace other's ideas if they can offer a better way that I like.

    I always foster an environment that revolves around discussion and input, however, my J "filter" will rule out only the best viable alternatives that I will incorporation into the plan.
    got chaos?

  10. #50
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    INTPs do not function well in corporate settings. I have the experience of working in both corporate and academic settings. I am working as a professor now, but I did work as a urban planner in both private and government settings.
    I also have experience in both corporate and academic settings. Here's what you are missing:

    YOU didn't perform well in corporate.
    Don't project that on to me. I've done well in every position I've ever been in - whether corporate or academic. I've been happier in some than others - and that's where I agree with you that corporate isn't necessarily the best fit for INTP's - but that's where our agreement ends. Just because you were unable to perform in a corporate setting, doesn't mean that I'm incapable in the same setting. I might face similar struggles since we are both INTP, but your failure does not mean that I am doomed to fail as well.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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