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  1. #31
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    And another good point MoneyTick made, is that so often these negotiations are full of empty demands and rhetoric. And that's what I hate about them.

    "We'll pay you X."
    "No, I need Y."
    "We'll give you X + 1, but not Y"
    "How about Y - 1"

    There's no real substance in a discussion like that. It's just a power struggle and who is willing to give in first and you never know what the other party's breaking point is - the point in which they will say, "Just forget the whole thing. We'll look elsewhere." It's just a huge guessing game. All the more reason that pay should be based on results, I suppose.
    There is substance, in that the two of you are negotiating a meeting point. If no meeting point, then yes, the two will go their separate ways.

    You're viewing this from a "must have this job" perspective when clearly, there's no way you can prove something and have it quantified and compensated within a company that has no forseeable end to their salary freeze. Be realistic.

  2. #32
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    good thing what moneytick wrote there, tho it sounds so fatalistic . Coming from a socialist country, you can sometimes loose perception of what company goals really are, when it's all hidden under the "we are a big nice family" cloak .

    I cant really contribute to the thread, cause I worked only in student jobs parttime so far. I am working for the government at the moment aswell and they pay their students in a high way no company would. Yet when you work fulltime you can earn way more apart from the government. I've still not decided which way to go, if I stay with the government I'll probably get an unlimited contract and I could work for as long as I'ld want there. But the amount of money you can then make besides your wager has a limit, which is very low and if you'ld earn money beside with giving lectures or organizing events and such, you'ld have to pay higher taxes.

    It always boils down a bit to the decision between the big money and security, but I think as I know me I'll always tend to choose the latter one; so I can have a save job and have more time and mental free space for my hobbies and family
    Precisely why I want this job is because of the free time it would allow me to work on other pursuits. Weekends at home, and lots of vacation time available. Of course, I have to balance that with putting in the proper amount of hours at the job in order to make myself valuable. If I just come to work "on time" and am the first one out the door every night, then their justification for paying me X might be fulfilled. It's about balance I suppose.

    In terms of security, yeah, the job would provide security. But, personally, I actually want to get away from that. That's how I've lived for most of my adult life - just hoping to "stay secure". There's something to be said for it, but I don't want to "just get by" anymore. There are places I want to get, things I want to do. But again, it's about balance.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #33
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    There is substance, in that the two of you are negotiating a meeting point. If no meeting point, then yes, the two will go their separate ways.

    You're viewing this from a "must have this job" perspective when clearly, there's no way you can prove something and have it quantified and compensated within a company that has no forseeable end to their salary freeze. Be realistic.
    I hear what you're saying. I want to be realistic, and that's probably why I end up taking the job. I was just looking for feedback from some of you guys that would help me think things through more thoroughly.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #34
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I hear what you're saying. I want to be realistic, and that's probably why I end up taking the job. I was just looking for feedback from some of you guys that would help me think things through more thoroughly.
    I know you want this job and with your reasoning, it's understandable. What I don't want to see, is you viewing it from any other position besides realism. If viewed in an expectation manner for compensation based on productivity, this company will bring the crashing realisation down around your head.

    I honestly don't disagree with much of what Moneytick has expressed. But I do feel that much of it isn't applicable within this context and the letter is pure suicide to someone who's not in an entry level position. In effect, you will have thrown away all your negotiating power and years of experience and for the company, this is absolutely lovely. But for you, it will suck big time.

    Okay. Enough directiveness on my part. Been on both sides of this coin. Need to learn to shutup.

  5. #35
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I know you want this job and with your reasoning, it's understandable. What I don't want to see, is you viewing it from any other position besides realism. If viewed in an expectation manner for compensation based on productivity, this company will bring the crashing realisation down around your head.

    I honestly don't disagree with much of what Moneytick has expressed. But I do feel that much of it isn't applicable within this context and the letter is pure suicide to someone who's not in an entry level position. In effect, you will have thrown away all your negotiating power and years of experience and for the company, this is absolutely lovely. But for you, it will suck big time.

    Okay. Enough directiveness on my part. Been on both sides of this coin. Need to learn to shutup.
    Good points for sure. But, no, it's not like I'm throwing away years and years of experience and sacrificing huge amounts of money and totally taking a step in the wrong direction. It's simply that I believe the wage they are offering could be and should be higher, based on numerous factors and considerations. And I believe that I've analyzed it with an unbiased eye, insomuch as that's even possible.

    Part of the issue for me, as well, has been that I once worked in a "high-cost-of-living" area where wages were higher. And now I'm in a "lower-cost-of-living area", where you can survive on much less - even get ahead on much less, but the salaries and wages seem puny in comparison. So, there's an adjustment for me to make there as well - although I was already factoring that in when I posted this thread.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I'm negotiating salary with a prospective employer. Having met him a few times now, I can see he is ENTJ. He offered x, I counter-offered with y (plus a small incentive). He then came back and said, "x is the absolute highest that HR will allow me to go. The organization has recently hired 2 individuals that will be doing the same work you will be doing and they have at least as much experience as you, if not more. That is HR's justification. But I will personally throw in the small incentive out of my own operating budget. So, I can offer you x plus the incentive, but not y."

    Questions: my gut tells me to say, "I can't do it for x. I need a little bit more than x. I can accept if you can't pay me y, but I need more than x (the gap between x and y is roughly a 17% difference)." I think he is playing hardball and putting me to a decision - he's saying, "last offer buddy."

    I want to call what I believe to be a bluff, but then there's the chance I won't get called back.

    a) For those of you who have negotiation skills, what are your thoughts here?
    b) Would ENTJ's be more prone to respect you more if you played hardball back and showed that you were willing to walk away on principle?
    You will lose your job. Ps and Js do not get along. The E/I/SNTJ will fire you for not conforming to their expectations and plans.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    There is substance, in that the two of you are negotiating a meeting point. If no meeting point, then yes, the two will go their separate ways.

    You're viewing this from a "must have this job" perspective when clearly, there's no way you can prove something and have it quantified and compensated within a company that has no forseeable end to their salary freeze. Be realistic.
    It is rarely about one's experience and/or competence when dealing with the TJ; they have a plan and expectations and you are there to take orders. You're a typical INTP, running all the what ifs in your mind. Now, you can negotiate with Fs, they actually care about people's lives, etc. I would leave the job before your boss trashes your self esteem.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Ha ha, I was trying to get a feel for what percentage this incentive would have factored into his negotiating calculations!

    Something else to consider if you're able to match your existing city to your potential city:

    http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp

    Anyways, I get the feeling you're taking this job so I'm going to wish you much luck in this.
    You're a typical INTP getting lost in the what ifs (details). A J has his/her mind made up about you, and there is not a damn thing you can do to change it. I am an INTP and my wife is a ENTJ (property manager). The TJs are always moving personnel around (hiring and firing) in pursuit of the perfect implementation of their plans. You are nothing but a worthless cog to your boss regardless of your experience and competence. He/She will replace you with someone more of their liking. Your replacement may very well be far less competent and/or experienced, but what matters is that they take orders.

  9. #39
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    You will lose your job.
    No I won't. Speak for yourself.

    Ps and Js do not get along. The E/I/SNTJ will fire you for not conforming to their expectations and plans.
    You're jaded and cynical. I understand that there are differences and sometimes those differences are large. But, they are not so large that two reasonable human beings cannot work through the differences in a professional manner.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDG26 View Post
    You're a typical INTP getting lost in the what ifs (details). A J has his/her mind made up about you, and there is not a damn thing you can do to change it. I am an INTP and my wife is a ENTJ (property manager). The TJs are always moving personnel around (hiring and firing) in pursuit of the perfect implementation of their plans. You are nothing but a worthless cog to your boss regardless of your experience and competence. He/She will replace you with someone more of their liking. Your replacement may very well be far less competent and/or experienced, but what matters is that they take orders.
    INTPs are not well adapted to the corporate world or office settings. INTPs always question authority, even if the questioning is not overt or even intended. What matters most in a corporate/office setting is fit.

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