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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Ha ha, I was trying to get a feel for what percentage this incentive would have factored into his negotiating calculations!
    It's a significant little chunk, but I think the moving expenses is "standard" - that's a common incentive. I want to work more on the base salary.

    Something else to consider if you're able to match your existing city to your potential city:

    http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp
    I'll take a look at this. Thanks.

    Anyways, I get the feeling you're taking this job so I'm going to wish you much luck in this.
    I might take it. It's less money than I wanted, but the big picture is good. Nice location, lots of vacation, working with some really smart folks, etc.
    Thanks for your time in this thread, by the way. I'm forced to make a decision this week and you've helped a lot. If nothing else, you got me thinking about different scenarios and the big picture of the offer.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  2. #22
    Senior Member Rex's Avatar
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    Stimuli at work is important. Money as long as you have enough is not.

    Have you seen the documentary called baraka?
    http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6061...ay.x264-EuReKA

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
    Stimuli at work is important. Money as long as you have enough is not.

    Have you seen the documentary called baraka?
    http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6061...ay.x264-EuReKA
    I don't disagree with your statement and I'm sure I'd enjoy a movie like this and the perspective it brings (I watched a clip on YouTube). I'm not one to be caught up in the rat race. But, just because "money is not everything" does not mean that we should accept as little as possible for our sweat and labor and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't stand up and negotiate for a better situation in exchange for the value we bring to an organization.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #24
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    INTPness,

    I will post some tips and recommendations in a bit, but first of all it would really help if I knew what field of work you are in. The reason I want to know is because there are different strategies for negotiating compensation based on the specific job you are applying to.

    If you are applying for a management position than its much easier to negotiate as opposed to being hired for admin work and organizing files.

    Please advise.
    got chaos?

  5. #25
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I'm negotiating salary with a prospective employer. Having met him a few times now, I can see he is ENTJ. He offered x, I counter-offered with y (plus a small incentive). He then came back and said, "x is the absolute highest that HR will allow me to go. The organization has recently hired 2 individuals that will be doing the same work you will be doing and they have at least as much experience as you, if not more. That is HR's justification. But I will personally throw in the small incentive out of my own operating budget. So, I can offer you x plus the incentive, but not y."

    Questions: my gut tells me to say, "I can't do it for x. I need a little bit more than x. I can accept if you can't pay me y, but I need more than x (the gap between x and y is roughly a 17% difference)." I think he is playing hardball and putting me to a decision - he's saying, "last offer buddy."

    I want to call what I believe to be a bluff, but then there's the chance I won't get called back.

    a) For those of you who have negotiation skills, what are your thoughts here?
    b) Would ENTJ's be more prone to respect you more if you played hardball back and showed that you were willing to walk away on principle?
    Based on the information you have given, both you and your employer are arguing over positions.

    By positions I mean: You want Y, he wants X. You tell him why you deserve Y, he tells you the best he can do is X. You are trying to reach an agreement by auctioneering resolute positions and throwing the ball back and forth until someone gives up. This seldom works.

    Lets break the entire situation up -

    First of all, what are the motives behind your position?

    Do you absolutely need to get paid Y for personal financial reasons? Or do you want to get paid Y because X is inadequate?

    Based on the information that you provided, your prospective employer's position is constituted of the following:

    Your employer can afford to pay you Y, but to protect cash flow and keep the budget level he/she is willing to go no higher than X.

    His/her goal is to get that job opening filled for X. Someone, whether it be you or someone else, is going to take that seat for X.

    Now let's take a look at your employer's goals for the corporation:

    Why is your boss hiring? Obviously because the corporation needs more resources to expand and generate revenue.

    Supposing that your employer is a top level manager - his/her goal would be to organize and leverage the resources available within the corporation to create value in the marketplace and positively impact profitability and earnings.

    The bottom line comes down to profit. The manager's responsibility it to entertain you with work that makes him/her look good on the income statement and balance sheet. Whether it may be answering calls, organizing files, being a creative director, and executive decision maker, etc...

    Now we have the information to devise a scenario in which you negotiate agreement, not positions.

    If you want to get paid more, you have to increase your value.

    X is a number which portrays the corporation's valuation of you.

    If you can prove to the corporation that you are more valuable than X, you shall get paid Y.

    And what is the most valuable thing for the corporation? It's profitability.

    What is the manager thinking about at this moment? Probably how to generate more revenue and increase profitability so he can get paid and remain in good standing within the corporate society.

    So the goal here is not to convince your employer to pay you Y, but rather – how YOU can be his greatest asset in making sure his goals are fulfilled.

    Don’t be afraid of putting yourself down and humbling yourself. It’s a strategic initiative that will move you up the latter in lightning speed.

    Now I don’t know what kind of work you will be doing exactly, but I’ll give you an example of how you can accomplish the foregoing if you were a sales manager.

    Negotiation is not a matter of getting what you want trying to persuade the opposing party using and demands and rhetoric. Negotiation is about creating “mutual benefit,” and using creativity to reach a desirable agreement that benefits all parties equally.

    So the only way this is going to work is by asking the right questions.

    You shouldn’t ask why Company ABC should compensate me Y. Company ABC pays for what it gets.

    You should be asking what you can do to increase your value to Company ABC that would justify the compensation increase.

    If you can make the recruiter/manager of Company ABC feel that you rightfully deserve to be paid Y, you shall be paid Y.

    I would suggest sending him/her a letter or placing a phone call using points from the narrative below:

    Mr. Smith {Insert Your Managers Name},

    I believe that employees are the life’s blood of a corporation, and should be compensated to reflect their investment value.

    After contemplating on your employment offer at a starting salary of X, I have decided that I wish to be part of your team.

    If you need another expense, then I believe that paying me X is a perfectly reasonable figure. However, I must emphasize that as I join the team at Company ABC, I don’t want to merely consume your resources and capital, I want to actually be part of the action and create value.

    I am willing to take your offer for X at this moment, contingent on a re-evaluation of my worth to your company in a few weeks/months {specify timeframe in which you wish to be compensated X}.

    I don’t want to get paid more; I want to increase my value. I believe that all employees should bear this perspective. If everyone worked towards mutual success as opposed to their next paycheck, I suppose you agree it would be a tremendous catalyst for success.

    For the next couple of weeks, I am willing to work overtime for free, come on weekends and discuss ideas for marketing campaigns, stay late and go over sales reports, find channels for improvement, and train staff to serve our customers better.

    I am willing to do the foregoing at no additional pay because I don’t want to jump aboard on a broken vessel; I want to be part of a vehicle of profitability and success.

    Mr. Smith, your responsibility is to make this corporation functional and profitable. I hope you take the initiative to discover my skills wherewith I can be a tremendous aid in your pursuit thereof.

    As of now, I am just another prospective employee that wrote you a rhetorical letter. There are plenty of prospective employees out there fully qualified for the position. Given that you have not seen what I am capable of, I concur that X is reasonable compensation.

    But upon realizing my true worth to your corporate goals, I suppose an increase in my compensation would no longer be an expense but an investment.

    Respectfully,
    Your Name

    If you are a prospective applicant for a government institution where profits are not the ultimate goal, then things change.

    Government institutions aren’t very selective in their hiring process and almost anybody with basic qualifications can get a position. However, given that a government employee is not an “investment” to the institution but rather an operating expense – negotiating salary becomes prohibitive especially when budgets are tight.

    If you are applying for a government position – I would follow the same approach as above. Take the position at the compensation offered, and prove your worth.
    The biggest goal for local governments is to keep their budgets solvent, which should be your primary goal as well.

    Give your superiors the impression that they are getting what they are paying for, and do more than is expected of you. If you are in the business/financial department, show your superiors that you know how to save the municipality money, obtain federal funding, etc …

    It’s harder to get paid for what you are really worth at a government level, but make sure you make everyone aware of your work and how you are really making a difference. Take whatever compensation is offered to you, make big things happen, and you will get paid more.
    got chaos?

  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Moneytick, much of what you've conceptualised has already been expressed in more concrete terms of applicability. But you are a tad naive with the proof/corporate koolaid aspect.

  7. #27
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Thanks MoneyTick, good advice - especially the written letter. I'm not sure I'll send a letter stating these things, but they do express my thoughts pretty accurately. I'd rather just "do" those things than to send a letter explaining it. But, I certainly think it's the right approach.

    Thanks for the insight.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    good thing what moneytick wrote there, tho it sounds so fatalistic . Coming from a socialist country, you can sometimes loose perception of what company goals really are, when it's all hidden under the "we are a big nice family" cloak .

    I cant really contribute to the thread, cause I worked only in student jobs parttime so far. I am working for the government at the moment aswell and they pay their students in a high way no company would. Yet when you work fulltime you can earn way more apart from the government. I've still not decided which way to go, if I stay with the government I'll probably get an unlimited contract and I could work for as long as I'ld want there. But the amount of money you can then make besides your wager has a limit, which is very low and if you'ld earn money beside with giving lectures or organizing events and such, you'ld have to pay higher taxes.

    It always boils down a bit to the decision between the big money and security, but I think as I know me I'll always tend to choose the latter one; so I can have a save job and have more time and mental free space for my hobbies and family
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #29
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Promising less and delivering more is a good adage. But taking below market rate on a non-entry level job is branding suicide, particularly in writing.

    Take commission sales bringing in your own client base. As if any corporation isn't going to be happy with a 10%/90% split with no sliding scale.

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    And another good point MoneyTick made, is that so often these negotiations are full of empty demands and rhetoric. And that's what I hate about them.

    "We'll pay you X."
    "No, I need Y."
    "We'll give you X + 1, but not Y"
    "How about Y - 1"

    There's no real substance in a discussion like that. It's just a power struggle and who is willing to give in first and you never know what the other party's breaking point is - the point in which they will say, "Just forget the whole thing. We'll look elsewhere." It's just a huge guessing game. All the more reason that pay should be based on results, I suppose.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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