User Tag List

First 6789 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 88

  1. #71
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    Okay, request declined. I'll not derail this conversation any longer.

    EDIT: Or not. I think my misunderstanding is as good a way to put a cap on that as any.

  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,585

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Yeah, we're usually not trying to set the agenda for others. It's hard enough staying on our own agenda, let alone managing the agenda of 5 or 10 others. The approach that NTP's take to leadership is usually: I'm going to show you how to do it properly and/or make sure you get the right training. After that, you're expected to make it happen. Make yourself competent. When we are in a new position, we only expect people to give us "basic training" and then we want freedom and space to figure out the rest - to operate fairly autonomously. And so we kind of expect the same from others when they work for us.

    NTP's have a very "hands-off" approach to managing others. We expect you to pick up your own slack and to function at a very high level. Sometimes it's good cuz people who like to work independently enjoy that freedom and total lack of micromanagement. Other times it's bad (really bad) cuz people come to us for guidance/leadership and we're like, "Why are you asking me? I have stuff to do. Figure it out!" And yeah, we're really bad with deadlines. If I don't keep a list, I forget stuff.
    My advisor was quite like this, and as Zarathustra observed, he wasn't a great manager. He was, however, an outstanding scientist and a truly honorable man, which is more than I can say for some of the faculty at my university. It was a real pleasure working with him, and we still stay in touch though he is retired now and I have been working professionally for awhile. My SO is INTP also, so I have had lots of experience with the pluses and minuses of this type relative to an INTJ.

  3. #73
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    INxJ INTx pissing contest.
    FYP. (And pissed on it a bit )

    I like uumlau's take.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Let's say an INTP and an INTJ are studying a wrist watch. Let's even allow them to have multiple copies so that they can take it apart or otherwise experiment and they can still get a working watch at the end of the process.

    The INTP will go in, analyze the circuitry, research electrical engineering, wafer chip design, etc., and come away with a complete logical understanding of the mechanisms of the watch and how it all works together to keep track of the time.

    The INTJ will go in and try to figure out how the watch works. He'll push buttons, set the time, program alarms, all with a mind to understanding the watch's functionality, what it means when it says a particular time, and what it's useful for. He might even expose it to temperature extremes to see whether it changes the rate of timekeeping compared to a control watch, or see how resistant the watch is to being under water at various depths.

    In the end, the INTP knows what the watch is, far better than the INTJ. He can tell you how it was made, the underlying logic of the circuitry, and probably have several ideas for "improving" the watch, e.g., make it even more accurate than it is.

    The INTJ will know what the watch does far better than the INTP. He will understand its capabilities and its limitations. He'll know that he needs to remove it if he goes swimming, because the water test failed, and that it runs about 5 seconds per month faster than an atomic clock, so after a year he'll have to wind it back one minute.
    @ INTPs going swimming with their watches on.
    This looks like Ti v Te.

    INTJ wants to figure out this watch. (concrete example of a solution to a real world problem)
    INTP wants to figure out watchmaking (abstract, ideal solution to a hypothetical problem)
    ?

    And your second post looks like Ni v Ne.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Both paths lead to new understandings, but the key I'm trying to illustrate is that they are rather different paths. The INTJ path is actually rather good at rethinking that which we "already know," while the INTP path is good at expanding into new understanding based on current understanding.
    INTP problem-solving is really about synthesis, yes. This is how Ne works, finding connections between previously unrelated ideas. This is how most knowledge and understanding progresses - by way of analogy.
    How is Ni different from that?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    With INTP's, there is truth and then there is everything else. It's more of a passive approach in that we see the truth as something that is out there to be explored. We're not trying to change the truth or forge into new territory necessarily - we just want to understand truth as it is.

    The INTP doesn't want to (or has a hard time) choosing just one subject to explore because he wants to explore truth as a "whole". If I go get a Ph.D. in Physics, then I feel like I'm abandoning the arts, World History, Psychology, Business, Nutrition and Physical Education, spirituality, and everything else that encompasses "truth". I want to explore it all as a whole. I'm not interested in picking one of those things and making it "my own personal expertise". I want to be knowledgeable on all of it.

    INTP wants to understand truth. It is what it is, we don't want to change it or manipulate it. We see it as unchangeable, and so we just want to understand it in all it's complexity.
    Truth ^10!

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Js are more stable in pursuit of a goal but Ps are better at troubleshooting when things are going wrong. Js help Ps be more focused and Ps help Js expand.

    edit, @strike - per uumlau's mention - was attributing that to P because it's true that NFPs are generally better troubleshooters than NFJs, but probably Te is better at troubleshooting.
    I think you were right first time around. Te is too rigid to be good for troubleshooting/firefighting. INTPs are excellent troubleshooters. Ps definitely have the advantage when it comes to flying by the seat of our pants. It's our only advantage! At least let us have that.

    I still don't know if anyone has answered the OPs question though...

    Speaking personally, I don't really care much for "evidence". Too easy to falsify, too easy to misinterpret or pick apart, too easy to repeat an experiment and get the opposite results...
    "Lies, damned lies, statistics".
    But, I will use formal evidence to construct an argument likely to convince my audience (even if it doesn't convince me...). One has to learn to do this in any academic environment. But I'd much rather work from first principles and reason alone. Evidence is only really useful for overturning flawed lines of thinking.

    So, to answer your question, I'd say INTJs are probably more likely to use empirical evidence to "prove" a theory. INTPs are probably generally less interested in "proving" anything. Unless you are talking about a formal proof or mathematical proof, which doesn't rely on anything outside of pure logic.

    Why do you ask, anyway?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #74
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    2,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salome View Post
    INTJ wants to figure out this watch. (concrete example of a solution to a real world problem)
    INTP wants to figure out watchmaking (abstract, ideal solution to a hypothetical problem)
    I was going to say something similar to this earlier in the thread, but INTJ's are "N's" too. Wouldn't it be ISTJ's that would want a "concrete solution to a real world problem". Sensors deal with the concrete, more or less, while intuitives tend to go for the abstract - and I would think that would include INTJ's. I'd like to know what some of the INTJ's think about this. Sometimes to INTP's you guys can have a "sensorish" feel about you - and maybe this has something to do with it - that you seem more concrete and "real world" than we do. Also, how do you INTJ's see your intuitiveness playing out? Is it like your N gives you ideas and hunches, but you still want to focus on concrete solutions?

    As much as we have our head in the clouds, even a well-developed INTP understands the value and significance of "concrete results" and "concrete solutions". So, sometimes - when the situation calls for it, we almost have to shut our "N" off and just go for the concrete (make like an ISTJ, fake it 'til you make it). But, at least from my perspective, it's just not as fun and interesting when I have to focus strictly on the concrete. I don't enjoy what I'm doing nearly as much when it's all "concrete" and "real world". I like to dream a bit and let my mind wander to big ideas, original concepts, innovative solutions, etc. Basically, if I have to stay in the "concrete" for an extended period of time - I start to feel drained. Like if I'm in a job for 6 months and it's extremely concrete every single day - aaahhhhh! I feel like I need a big N release. Just wondering what INTJ's have to say in regards to the assumption or the observation that you seem more "concrete" than us. Is it true or does it just look that way from the outside?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  5. #75
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Actually, Te is rather concrete, due to being extroverted. I (mis)tested as ISTJ several times, and thus dismissed MBTI as meaningless twaddle for a long while. It turns out that questions like "do you prefer concrete facts or abstract theory?" strike a false dichotomy for INTJs. Ni is abstract, Te is (logically/logistically) concrete. I need concrete information to form correct and meaningful abstract theories. The main difference between INTJ and INTP in this regard is that the INTJ is internally intuitive, coming up with ideas and perspectives to understand a given set of data logically (Te). The INTP is internally logical (Ti), reaching externally for new ideas (Ne) to add to the internal logical model.

    An ISTJ does something rather different: the evaluation of external data (Te) leaves a concrete subjective impression (Si), which in turn yields a comparison of current data to past data and a tendency to use consistent, reliable solutions. Ni doesn't compare so much to past data and facts, but more to past understandings of functionality. Very simplistically, Si says, "this is the same as that was, so it should work the same," while Ni says, "this works like these other things in most ways, so maybe it works like one of them in other ways." (Forgive the vagueness - a short explanation of Ni is necessarily vague, and while a long explanation of Ni might be more clear, it is often too long. )
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #76
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    2,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Actually, Te is rather concrete, due to being extroverted. I (mis)tested as ISTJ several times, and thus dismissed MBTI as meaningless twaddle for a long while. It turns out that questions like "do you prefer concrete facts or abstract theory?" strike a false dichotomy for INTJs. Ni is abstract, Te is (logically/logistically) concrete. I need concrete information to form correct and meaningful abstract theories. The main difference between INTJ and INTP in this regard is that the INTJ is internally intuitive, coming up with ideas and perspectives to understand a given set of data logically (Te). The INTP is internally logical (Ti), reaching externally for new ideas (Ne) to add to the internal logical model.

    An ISTJ does something rather different: the evaluation of external data (Te) leaves a concrete subjective impression (Si), which in turn yields a comparison of current data to past data and a tendency to use consistent, reliable solutions. Ni doesn't compare so much to past data and facts, but more to past understandings of functionality. Very simplistically, Si says, "this is the same as that was, so it should work the same," while Ni says, "this works like these other things in most ways, so maybe it works like one of them in other ways." (Forgive the vagueness - a short explanation of Ni is necessarily vague, and while a long explanation of Ni might be more clear, it is often too long. )
    OK, yeah, so Te likes to deal in the concrete. But, you said Te is concrete because it is extroverted. Ne is also extroverted, but not always concrete. Or maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe Ne is more concrete than I think.

    The picture I'm getting from all of this is that INTP's take in A LOT via Ne and then try to reduced it/simplify it/understand it through Ti. We take in a TON of information and connections and at least attempt to reduce it into this neat, tidy, internal construct so that it's easily retained and easily understandable.

    INTJ's, on the other hand, have A LOT of internal ideas and theories and then try to narrow it/simplify it/execute it through Te. You have a TON of information and possibilities internally and then attempt to execute it/carry it out/test it in the real, concrete world.

    If all that is true (?), it would explain why we seem to have our head in the clouds more. Because, as you said, our logic is mostly internal. It's below the surface and it's hidden, at least in large part. And on the outside (if we are using Ne), we come off as goofy, whacky, head in the clouds. With you guys, it's kind of the other way around. Endless possibilities on the inside, but what people see on the outside is very structured, focused, and logical.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #77
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    2,880

    Default

    If all that is true (?), it would explain why we seem to have our head in the clouds more. Because, as you said, our logic is mostly internal. It's below the surface and it's hidden, at least in large part. And on the outside (if we are using Ne), we come off as goofy, whacky, head in the clouds. With you guys, it's kind of the other way around. Endless possibilities on the inside, but what people see on the outside is very structured, focused, and logical.
    Ohhh...unfair!



    This does sound pretty accurate, though.

  8. #78
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    OK, yeah, so Te likes to deal in the concrete. But, you said Te is concrete because it is extroverted. Ne is also extroverted, but not always concrete. Or maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe Ne is more concrete than I think.

    The picture I'm getting from all of this is that INTP's take in A LOT via Ne and then try to reduced it/simplify it/understand it through Ti. We take in a TON of information and connections and at least attempt to reduce it into this neat, tidy, internal construct so that it's easily retained and easily understandable.

    INTJ's, on the other hand, have A LOT of internal ideas and theories and then try to narrow it/simplify it/execute it through Te. You have a TON of information and possibilities internally and then attempt to execute it/carry it out/test it in the real, concrete world.

    If all that is true (?), it would explain why we seem to have our head in the clouds more. Because, as you said, our logic is mostly internal. It's below the surface and it's hidden, at least in large part. And on the outside (if we are using Ne), we come off as goofy, whacky, head in the clouds. With you guys, it's kind of the other way around. Endless possibilities on the inside, but what people see on the outside is very structured, focused, and logical.
    Yep, that's exactly it.

    Ne is more concrete than Ni, but that isn't saying much.

    It's sort of like Jung came up with three different concepts of objective/subjective dichotomies: T/F, S/N, e/i. Te and Se are, in this sense, the "most objective" while Ni and Fi are the most subjective, and then there's four that are mixtures of objective and subjective. INTPs have the mixed ones, Ti/Ne/Si/Fe, while INTJs have the "unmixed" ones, Ni/Te/Fi/Se.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #79
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    OK, yeah, so Te likes to deal in the concrete. But, you said Te is concrete because it is extroverted. Ne is also extroverted, but not always concrete. Or maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe Ne is more concrete than I think.

    The picture I'm getting from all of this is that INTP's take in A LOT via Ne and then try to reduced it/simplify it/understand it through Ti. We take in a TON of information and connections and at least attempt to reduce it into this neat, tidy, internal construct so that it's easily retained and easily understandable.
    Extraverted intuition is not really about taking in information though. It's what you do with the information after you've taken it in. So it isn't 'extraverted' in the way that Te is - directed towards making a tangible impact on one's environment. The stuff Ne comes up with (essentially connections) is internally generated. It is created by the individual, not a product of the environment, even though something in the environment may have set the train in motion. It is perception, but it's internal perception - seeing with the inner eye. That's how I see it anyway.
    NPs are the least concrete of types, I'd have said, since both our preferred mode of information processing, and our preferred method of arriving at conclusions are only tangentially related to 'reality'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yep, that's exactly it.

    Ne is more concrete than Ni, but that isn't saying much.

    It's sort of like Jung came up with three different concepts of objective/subjective dichotomies: T/F, S/N, e/i. Te and Se are, in this sense, the "most objective" while Ni and Fi are the most subjective, and then there's four that are mixtures of objective and subjective. INTPs have the mixed ones, Ti/Ne/Si/Fe, while INTJs have the "unmixed" ones, Ni/Te/Fi/Se.

    Therefore Js swing from the extremes, while Ps are middle ground people.

    J in middle earth is stressed, P swinging from extremes is stressed

    edit: It can get confusing when Ps learn how to swing to extremes for fun and Js learn how to be in middle ground for accomplishing a task

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] INTP vs INTJ - who is more manipulative?
    By tcda in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 05-11-2017, 08:57 AM
  2. The Search for Better, More Elemental Definitions of the Functions, Esp. Judging
    By Eric B in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-10-2011, 02:44 PM
  3. [sx] sx/sp types, let me save you a lot of trouble in the search for a mate
    By themarlins in forum Instinctual Subtypes
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-09-2010, 11:08 PM
  4. [NT] INTPs vs. INTJs: Who are the bigger nerds?
    By ajblaise in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 10-05-2009, 02:02 AM
  5. LBTM: The Search for Elle Woods
    By wedekit in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-03-2008, 11:26 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO