User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 88

  1. #51
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Well, now that you've gone back and edited and clarified your response:

    You could say there's a jovial "Crips/Bloods-type rivalry" between NTJs and NTPs.

    I genuinely can't stand one or two NTPs on here, but there are plenty I enjoy.

    There are differences between us, and they're fun to just take stabs at.

    Perhaps you don't notice it when it's not directed at you, but it goes both ways.

    EDIT: In fact, I'd say you probably actually see it coming from a lot more NTPs than NTJs.

  2. #52
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    Fair is fair. I didn't harbor any negative impression of you until you implied I (and, I guess, my ilk) was so inferior as to only consider two responses with my tiny insect brain. And you spent this entire thread putting us down. And you stuck it in your signature in case we didn't know which way the wind blew. All of which, I'm sure, had a point.

    So: Next time you don't want someone to make a snide, dickish remark against you, try not doing it first.

  3. #53
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    I didn't harbor any negative impression of you until you implied I (and, I guess, my ilk) was so inferior as to only consider two responses with my tiny insect brain.
    Look at your construction...

    You were the one who explicitly stated that there were two options.

    I didn't even know whether you were asking me specifically or more generally, because your wording was so ambiguous.

    Furthermore, how the fuck did I imply that your entire ilk was so inferior as to only consider two responses? That doesn't even make any sense...

    Perhaps you need to get a little less sensitive, and just recognize a question for a question, and a statement for a statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    And you spent this entire thread putting us down.
    First of all, I did not spend the entire thread "putting [you guys] down".

    If you didn't notice, my first post in this thread was in reply to AJBlaise, who initiated the "Blood/Crips rivalry" in this thread with his post.

    I just responded to his post, part jokingly, part seriously, and just giving him back the shit he had just dealt out.

    Even one of your own stated that what I said was essentially accurate.

    Other than that, I criticized one INTP's and one INTJ's constructions about the differences between INTP and INTJ thought, and got into one war of words with an INTP who I (and many others) find obnoxious (if you want to see blatantly stupid attacks over this "rivalry", look no further than him -- he's the worst on this site).

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    And you stuck it in your signature in case we didn't know which way the wind blew.
    All I did was quote one of your own.

    And my doing so didn't even have anything to do with this thread.

    Probably the most common remark you hear in this "rivalry" is NTPs saying that NTJs are close-minded and NTPs are open-minded.

    The fact that an INTP, and probably the oldest one on here, finds that belief to not only be utter bullshit, but actually finds INTPs to be the most close-minded of the types, is rather interesting. Don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    All of which, I'm sure, had a point.
    Well, at least you've got something right.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    So: Next time you don't want someone to make a snide, dickish remark against you, try not doing it first.
    How bout next time you want some information, be clear about what you're asking, and to whom you are asking it.

    Also, try not to make a shitty false dichotomy, and try not to make it all even worse by addressing one part of that false dichotomy to one specific party, and the other to a more general audience (and without making any of this clear).

    That way, I won't have to question who you're even asking your question(s) to, and what the hell it is exactly that you're asking.

    Furthermore, don't misinterpret a question for clarification and a comment about your construction as my attempting to be snide or dickish.

    And, lastly, don't get your panties in such a bunch over your misinterpretation that, rather than take the conversation somewhere meaningful, you self-sabotage it with a whiny remark.

  4. #54
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    712

    Default

    "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is the core of it. Let's look at an analogy where INTP and INTJ seem to be doing the same thing, but their different perspectives lead to very different observations and conclusions.

    Let's say an INTP and an INTJ are studying a wrist watch. Let's even allow them to have multiple copies so that they can take it apart or otherwise experiment and they can still get a working watch at the end of the process.

    The INTP will go in, analyze the circuitry, research electrical engineering, wafer chip design, etc., and come away with a complete logical understanding of the mechanisms of the watch and how it all works together to keep track of the time.

    The INTJ will go in and try to figure out how the watch works. He'll push buttons, set the time, program alarms, all with a mind to understanding the watch's functionality, what it means when it says a particular time, and what it's useful for. He might even expose it to temperature extremes to see whether it changes the rate of timekeeping compared to a control watch, or see how resistant the watch is to being under water at various depths.

    In the end, the INTP knows what the watch is, far better than the INTJ. He can tell you how it was made, the underlying logic of the circuitry, and probably have several ideas for "improving" the watch, e.g., make it even more accurate than it is.

    The INTJ will know what the watch does far better than the INTP. He will understand its capabilities and its limitations. He'll know that he needs to remove it if he goes swimming, because the water test failed, and that it runs about 5 seconds per month faster than an atomic clock, so after a year he'll have to wind it back one minute.
    I think this is intended to reflect the kind of attitude the theoretical (<- this is a very important distinction IMO) INTJ and INTP when it comes to learning about an object of interest. I don't think uumlau intends to define what either party is necessarily interested in investigating; I don't think he/she intends to indicate/imply any limitations about either party's "research methods" either.

    Bottom line is: I think uumlau's parallel was a reasonably good one, when it comes to describing how your average INTJ or INTP usually approaches an idea/object of interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, can we all admit that INTJs aren't only about pragmatism, and that INTPs aren't completely disinterested when it comes to pragmatism.

    I agree that INTJs will care more about pragmatic ends and INTPs just about knowing for knowing's sake, but I think it's often overplayed that INTJs "don't care about the truth", and, likewise, I don't think INTPs don't give two shits whether their findings can benefit humanity via practical application.

    We each have the sides we lean more towards, but can we admit that this construction tends to get a bit too overplayed?

    I mean, from the INTJ perspective: do you think we really want the wrong answer? :rolleyes2:
    Well, that's just stating the obvious. I'd venture to say most members in this thread didn't need you to inform them of this (because they already understand).
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  5. #55
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." - Mark Twain
    Ohh, that quote is a good gem. Thanks for posting.

    Let it echo throughout the forum's chambers...

  6. #56
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    I think this is intended to reflect the kind of attitude the theoretical (<- this is a very important distinction IMO) INTJ and INTP when it comes to learning about an object of interest. I don't think uumlau intends to define what either party is necessarily interested in investigating; I don't think he/she intends to indicate/imply any limitations about either party's "research methods" either.

    Bottom line is: I think uumlau's parallel was a reasonably good one, when it comes to describing how your average INTJ or INTP usually approaches an idea/object of interest.
    I think it is a poor example because of the depth of understanding needed in each case.

    A capable 9-yr old can figure out how to use a watch, while dissecting the mechanics, physics, and inner dimensions of a watch is a much more difficult course of study.

    As such, I think it's a rather poor analogy; substitute something like quantum mechanics, and the difference between INTJs wanting to figure out how to apply it, and INTPs just wanting to figure it out, well, yes, then the analogy is suitable; but a watch? Not so much.

    Hence, my critique, in which I said that the key difference really seems to be that INTJs seem to be interested in learning things only if they (might) fit into their larger vision, while INTPs seem to be interested in learning things solely for the sake of learning.

    Add, as a caveat, what I said about this not necessarily being entirely the case, to which you responded:

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Well, that's just stating the obvious. I'd venture to say most members in this thread didn't need you to inform them of this (because they already understand).
    I wish this were the case, but, unfortunately, based on a good number of the posts in this thread, and many more all over the forum, it certainly doesn't seem like it...

    If we're in the mood for throwing quotes around, here's a relevant one:

    "What makes a subject difficult to understand — if it is significant, important — is not that some special instruction about abstruse things is necessary to understand it. Rather it is the contrast between the understanding of the subject and what most people want to see. Because of this the very things that are most obvious can become the most difficult to understand. What has to be overcome is not difficulty of the intellect but of the will." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

  7. #57
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think it is a poor example because of the depth of understanding needed in each case.

    A capable 9-yr old can figure out how to use a watch, while dissecting the mechanics, physics, and inner dimensions of a watch is a much more difficult course of study.

    As such, I think it's a rather poor analogy; substitute something like quantum mechanics, and the difference between INTJs wanting to figure out how to apply it, and INTPs just wanting to figure it out, well, yes, then the analogy is suitable; but a watch? Not so much.

    Hence, my critique, in which I said that the key difference really seems to be that INTJs seem to be interested in learning things only if they (might) fit into their larger vision, while INTPs seem to be interested in learning things solely for the sake of learning.
    This made it much easier for me to understand your arguments - you are a very eloquent one. Thank you for taking the time to explain, I respect that.

    Add, as a caveat, what I said about this not necessarily being entirely the case, to which you responded: ...

    I wish this were the case, but, unfortunately, based on a good number of the posts in this thread, and many more all over the forum, it certainly doesn't seem like it...
    Fair enough.

    If we're in the mood for throwing quotes around, here's a relevant one:

    "What makes a subject difficult to understand — if it is significant, important — is not that some special instruction about abstruse things is necessary to understand it. Rather it is the contrast between the understanding of the subject and what most people want to see. Because of this the very things that are most obvious can become the most difficult to understand. What has to be overcome is not difficulty of the intellect but of the will." - Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Nice quote. I quite like it myself.

    I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to address with that quote, but in case you think that I am trying to "defend" certain members or groups, I would like to just clarify that that is not the case.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  8. #58
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Fair enough.

    Nice quote. I quite like it myself.

    I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to address with that quote, but in case you think that I am trying to "defend" certain members or groups - that is not the case.
    I'm just trying to point out that just because something is obvious, doesn't mean it is recognized.

    Sometimes the thing right in front of our nose is the hardest for us to see.

    You ventured to guess that my comment was not necessary, as its truth is obvious; but not once have I ever seen such a sentiment even expressed on this forum!

    Yet, by contrast, I don't know how many fucking times I've heard this: "NTJs only care about applying knowledge, while NTPs care about actually understanding it."

    I've never even seen someone (other than perhaps myself or Ragashree, and even then only rarely) raise the question of what exactly the relationship is between actually understanding something and figuring out all the ways in which it can be applied.

    In light of these facts, I just think it was interesting that you seemed to express that my statement lacked utility, yet, with regards to the oft-repeated and less accurate cliche above, which has more or less been repeated in various forms at least a handful of times in this thread, you seemed quite mum.

    I would think bringing up potentially obvious truths that never seem to get mentioned but that add important caveats to oft-repeated and rather poorly understood cliches would be more beneficial than simply continuing the parroting of those cliches without any greater reflection as to their nuances or veracity.


  9. #59
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/so
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I'm just trying to point out that just because something is obvious, doesn't mean it is recognized.

    Sometimes the thing right in front of our nose is the hardest for us to see.

    You ventured to guess that my comment was not necessary, as its truth is obvious; but not once have I ever seen such a sentiment expressed on this forum.

    Yet, by contrast, I don't know how many fucking times I've heard this: "NTJs only care about applying knowledge, while NTPs care about actually understanding it."

    I've never even seen someone raise the question of what exactly the relationship is between understanding something for what it is, and figuring out all the ways in which it can be applied.
    I can follow your logic very clearly, and it makes sense. It seems to me that the only point I disagree with you on is how prevalent the members who recognize the "truth" are among this forum.

    In light of these facts, I just think it was interesting that you seemed to express that my statement lacked utility, yet, with regards to the oft-repeated and less accurate cliche above, which has more or less been repeated in various forms at least a handful of times in this thread, you seemed quite mum.
    I will freely admit this has to do with my own (positive) judgments about the members involved in this thread (in terms of their general level of intelligence and insight).

    Again, thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view. You are insightful and indeed have given me some food for thought (and a new favorite quote to add to the list).
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  10. #60
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    I can follow your logic very clearly, and it makes sense. It seems to me that the only point I disagree with you on is how prevalent the members who recognize the "truth" are among this forum.
    Well, it could very well be that everybody understands these caveats, but, even if that is the case, we seem to always repeat the shoddy cliche, but rarely or never mention the important nuances.

    Additionally, I think the shoddy cliche tends to depreciate NTJ thinking but not NTP, so, not to sound accusatory, but I would assume it would be something you'd have less grievance over.

    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Again, thank you for taking the time to explain. You are insightful and indeed have given me some food for thought (and a new favorite quote to add to the list).

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] INTP vs INTJ - who is more manipulative?
    By tcda in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 05-11-2017, 08:57 AM
  2. The Search for Better, More Elemental Definitions of the Functions, Esp. Judging
    By Eric B in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-10-2011, 02:44 PM
  3. [sx] sx/sp types, let me save you a lot of trouble in the search for a mate
    By themarlins in forum Instinctual Subtypes
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-09-2010, 11:08 PM
  4. [NT] INTPs vs. INTJs: Who are the bigger nerds?
    By ajblaise in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 10-05-2009, 02:02 AM
  5. LBTM: The Search for Elle Woods
    By wedekit in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-03-2008, 11:26 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO