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  1. #31
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, you thought you got ahead of me.
    what if i created a new game that you dont know your playing, and i created this new game so that you would reply how you just replied. doesent it mean that i was actually ahead of you? and even if you caught up with the game and replied like that just to test this new game(by playing along) i made, so that you would get ahead of me. doesent it mean that i actually was ahead of you at that point and make your previous statement wrong?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    what if i created a new game that you dont know your playing, and i created this new game so that you would reply how you just replied. doesent it mean that i was actually ahead of you? and even if you caught up with the game and replied like that just to test this new game(by playing along) i made, so that you would get ahead of me. doesent it mean that i actually was ahead of you at that point and make your previous statement wrong?
    No, because I'm always three steps ahead of you.

    What you described was being just one step ahead of somebody.

    Only someone always three steps behind would have mistaken it for impressive.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is the core of it. Let's look at an analogy where INTP and INTJ seem to be doing the same thing, but their different perspectives lead to very different observations and conclusions.

    Let's say an INTP and an INTJ are studying a wrist watch. Let's even allow them to have multiple copies so that they can take it apart or otherwise experiment and they can still get a working watch at the end of the process.

    The INTP will go in, analyze the circuitry, research electrical engineering, wafer chip design, etc., and come away with a complete logical understanding of the mechanisms of the watch and how it all works together to keep track of the time.

    The INTJ will go in and try to figure out how the watch works. He'll push buttons, set the time, program alarms, all with a mind to understanding the watch's functionality, what it means when it says a particular time, and what it's useful for. He might even expose it to temperature extremes to see whether it changes the rate of timekeeping compared to a control watch, or see how resistant the watch is to being under water at various depths.

    In the end, the INTP knows what the watch is, far better than the INTJ. He can tell you how it was made, the underlying logic of the circuitry, and probably have several ideas for "improving" the watch, e.g., make it even more accurate than it is.

    The INTJ will know what the watch does far better than the INTP. He will understand its capabilities and its limitations. He'll know that he needs to remove it if he goes swimming, because the water test failed, and that it runs about 5 seconds per month faster than an atomic clock, so after a year he'll have to wind it back one minute.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    What I like most about this post is that it's objective. There is no hint of a personal bias or leaning towards one type being "better" than the other. It acknowledges the strengths of each type and gives credit where credit is due.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    I agree with uumlau's general assessment pretty strongly.
    Really?

    I didn't think it was that great... I've seen uumlau do better...

    I don't think it really demonstrates the difference between INTJs' and INTPs' thinking all that well...

    I think INTJs want every thing they learn to be part of a larger goal, an imperative; while INTPs' imperative is to learn as much as they can, for the (sole) goal of acquiring that knowledge -- knowledge for the sake of knowledge; the INTJ could just as well learn how the watch works in all the same ways the INTP would in uumlau's example, if learning how the watch works somehow fits into his larger goal -- his vision; the INTPs are more down to just learn for learning's sake, and that is, for the most part, their primary goal; likewise, the INTP could learn all about how the watch works in all the same ways Uumlau said the INTJ would, if that was one of the areas where he wanted to acquire knowledge; and remember: the INTJ could always choose as his primary goal the acquisition of knowledge (realistically, it would probably be subsumed under some other goal, but it would still be part of his total vision). I don't think the two need be interested in different topics...


  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, because I'm always three steps ahead of you.

    What you described was being just one step ahead of somebody.

    Only someone always three steps behind would have mistaken it for impressive.
    prove it
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #35
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    You know INTx are complimentary types; by that they have "compatible strengths with opposite emphases" both will find you a logically concise and accurate answer and develop a complex interwoven case; sure the approach is different but the result would be the same.

  6. #36
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post


    You know INTx are complimentary types; by that they have "compatible strengths with opposite emphases" both will find you a logically concise and accurate answer and develop a complex interwoven case; sure the approach is different but the result would be the same.
    Some people would still argue that their "type" is better. It's a heliocentric point-of-view that they haven't learned to get rid of. Everything revolves around me and, therefore, my way of doing things must be the best. Pure silliness.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #37
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    INTP's are less likely to influence the evidence. Their tendency towards precision and their lack of actually being attached to the information causes them get more accurate data, but the uncertainty that Ne causes will make it nigh impossible to get them to actually analyze data until they believe all the data has beeen obtained.

    INTJ's are slightly more attached and interpret information when they receive it, but this constant interpretation will get them to an answer quicker and the tertiary function will allow them to believe that they have the right answer, giving them confidence in their research (Confidence in research is fundamental to good research).
    I'm definitely more INTP going by that description.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    The thing that comes to mind for me is that, IMO, INTJ's take a more proactive approach to trying to prove A, B, or C. They are forging forward and discovering new truths. They have theory A and so they set out to prove it. If they are able to prove it, then maybe it helps society or helps the situation they are in.

    With INTP's, there is truth and then there is everything else. It's more of a passive approach in that we see the truth as something that is out there to be explored. We're not trying to change the truth or forge into new territory necessarily - we just want to understand truth as it is.

    One reason that I think you see more INTJ's in Ph.D. programs than you do INTP's (I have no "proof" to claim this as true, but I believe it is) is because the INTJ has no problem choosing a subject they want to study and then forging forward and doing research in that area. In the process of choosing something to study the INTJ has, in essence, forsaken all the other areas of study. They can still have outside interests, but the bulk of their time will be spent in their subject.

    The INTP doesn't want to (or has a hard time) choosing just one subject to explore because he wants to explore truth as a "whole". If I go get a Ph.D. in Physics, then I feel like I'm abandoning the arts, World History, Psychology, Business, Nutrition and Physical Education, spirituality, and everything else that encompasses "truth". I want to explore it all as a whole. I'm not interested in picking one of those things and making it "my own personal expertise". I want to be knowledgeable on all of it.

    INTJ wants to uncover new truths in a given area - proactively advancing what we know as truth.

    INTP wants to understand truth. It is what it is, we don't want to change it or manipulate it. We see it as unchangeable, and so we just want to understand it in all it's complexity.
    I relate strongly to the INTP example again and not so much to the INTJ one. I know I could never pursue a Ph.D. degree because I just don't have the intensity of focus to apply myself in a relatively narrow area of interest over a long period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is the core of it. Let's look at an analogy where INTP and INTJ seem to be doing the same thing, but their different perspectives lead to very different observations and conclusions.

    Let's say an INTP and an INTJ are studying a wrist watch. Let's even allow them to have multiple copies so that they can take it apart or otherwise experiment and they can still get a working watch at the end of the process.

    The INTP will go in, analyze the circuitry, research electrical engineering, wafer chip design, etc., and come away with a complete logical understanding of the mechanisms of the watch and how it all works together to keep track of the time.

    The INTJ will go in and try to figure out how the watch works. He'll push buttons, set the time, program alarms, all with a mind to understanding the watch's functionality, what it means when it says a particular time, and what it's useful for. He might even expose it to temperature extremes to see whether it changes the rate of timekeeping compared to a control watch, or see how resistant the watch is to being under water at various depths.

    In the end, the INTP knows what the watch is, far better than the INTJ. He can tell you how it was made, the underlying logic of the circuitry, and probably have several ideas for "improving" the watch, e.g., make it even more accurate than it is.

    The INTJ will know what the watch does far better than the INTP. He will understand its capabilities and its limitations. He'll know that he needs to remove it if he goes swimming, because the water test failed, and that it runs about 5 seconds per month faster than an atomic clock, so after a year he'll have to wind it back one minute.
    Now in this example I relate far more to INTJ but I think that's because I've never been mechanically inclined. I don't really care how the watch works on a fundamental mechanical level. I just want it *to work*, to do the things it was designed to do. I don't care either about it super precise. If its within a couple of minutes from the actual time, it's good enough for me.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    The thing that comes to mind for me is that, IMO, INTJ's take a more proactive approach to trying to prove A, B, or C. They are forging forward and discovering new truths. They have theory A and so they set out to prove it. If they are able to prove it, then maybe it helps society or helps the situation they are in.

    With INTP's, there is truth and then there is everything else. It's more of a passive approach in that we see the truth as something that is out there to be explored. We're not trying to change the truth or forge into new territory necessarily - we just want to understand truth as it is.

    One reason that I think you see more INTJ's in Ph.D. programs than you do INTP's (I have no "proof" to claim this as true, but I believe it is) is because the INTJ has no problem choosing a subject they want to study and then forging forward and doing research in that area. In the process of choosing something to study the INTJ has, in essence, forsaken all the other areas of study. They can still have outside interests, but the bulk of their time will be spent in their subject.

    The INTP doesn't want to (or has a hard time) choosing just one subject to explore because he wants to explore truth as a "whole". If I go get a Ph.D. in Physics, then I feel like I'm abandoning the arts, World History, Psychology, Business, Nutrition and Physical Education, spirituality, and everything else that encompasses "truth". I want to explore it all as a whole. I'm not interested in picking one of those things and making it "my own personal expertise". I want to be knowledgeable on all of it.

    INTJ wants to uncover new truths in a given area - proactively advancing what we know as truth.

    INTP wants to understand truth. It is what it is, we don't want to change it or manipulate it. We see it as unchangeable, and so we just want to understand it in all it's complexity.
    This is very perceptive, so true. INTJs are more prevalent in PhD programs than INTPs, particularly in the sciences. My advisor was an INTJ; he contributed much to my angst with INTJs (LOL).

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Interesting. My advisor was likely INTP, and I quickly learned I had to handhold HIM when it came to decisions and deadlines. I never brought a problem to his attention without a short prioritized list of possible solutions, including relevant timelines and dependencies. I also soon ended up managing all the reporting for our grants/contracts. Groupmates who expected him to handhold them became quite frustrated, and wondered how I coped. It was actually all quite fun.

  10. #40
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Interesting. My advisor was likely INTP, and I quickly learned I had to handhold HIM when it came to decisions and deadlines. I never brought a problem to his attention without a short prioritized list of possible solutions, including relevant timelines and dependencies. I also soon ended up managing all the reporting for our grants/contracts. Groupmates who expected him to handhold them became quite frustrated, and wondered how I coped. It was actually all quite fun.
    Yeah, we're usually not trying to set the agenda for others. It's hard enough staying on our own agenda, let alone managing the agenda of 5 or 10 others. The approach that NTP's take to leadership is usually: I'm going to show you how to do it properly and/or make sure you get the right training. After that, you're expected to make it happen. Make yourself competent. When we are in a new position, we only expect people to give us "basic training" and then we want freedom and space to figure out the rest - to operate fairly autonomously. And so we kind of expect the same from others when they work for us.

    I know an ENTP business owner who gets frustrated with his employees. He tells me, "I pay these people good freakin' money. Figure it out. Don't make me hold your hand. For what I'm paying you, you should be extremely competent and not need my guidance every 15 minutes." It's funny to watch, cuz he gets pretty heated about it.

    NTP's have a very "hands-off" approach to managing others. We expect you to pick up your own slack and to function at a very high level. Sometimes it's good cuz people who like to work independently enjoy that freedom and total lack of micromanagement. Other times it's bad (really bad) cuz people come to us for guidance/leadership and we're like, "Why are you asking me? I have stuff to do. Figure it out!" And yeah, we're really bad with deadlines. If I don't keep a list, I forget stuff.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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