[ENTJ] Is this typical ENTJ behavior?

[alicia91]

My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

Is this typical?

 

[Night]

My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

This sounds closer to a social adaptation commonly jacketed by the ENFP. I'd imagine his fluency with a spectrum of topics (alongside a reasoned awareness of etiquette) makes him sympathetic to a variety of causes.

Yet, the NT is usually stubborn when it comes to personal intuition. As such, I'd imagine his behavior is the result of some larger justification - the need to "fit in", as to avoid petty alienation from his peers. He performs this way when he's in unfamiliar settings, yes?

If he is an ENTJ (sounds like he is) he's using some level of adaptive strategy to protect his interests.

 

[Xander]

ENTJ is more "This system is rubbish and here's why..."

"Tow the line" not really their style unless they are the ones at the front doing the pulling

A fav quote
ENTJ "There's only one way to do a job and that's the right way."
Son "Would that also happen to be your way father"
ENTJ "Yes"

 

[proteanmix]

My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

Is this typical?

I think that ENJs may be more tolerant and adaptive to structure (not necessarily the status quo), either bending it, working around it, or actively changing it. I rarely try to reinvent the wheel and typically work with what I have. Maybe your ENTJ thinks it's a small trade off to drive a Ford for a job. And if you think about it, if you work for Pepsi and get caught drinking a Coke (even though Coke is far superior) maintaining the appearance of liking Pepsi is a key to keeping your job. It's up to the person to weigh the value of a job vs. right to drink the carbonated beverage of their choice. People make all types of valid and invalid assumptions others based on appearances. Sometimes I think it's beneficial to maintain the status quo not because I believe it, it's more beneficial and simpler for me to do so. I guess how much these small changes and adjustments begin to add up to the devouring of your soul and you begin to lose sight of who you really are.

 

[alicia91]

This is probably why he's a corporate executive and I'm not! I have an incredibly hard time going along with something that I don't support. Perhaps I was reading too much into his view and the real reason is more that he's simply there to try to make a business deal and big whoop if he's got to borrow a car to make a good impression? (Yet, at other times when he's not actively making deals he complains about their old-fashioned ideas. Then he buys right into the very things he complains about!).

Just a bit of husband venting!

 

[INTJMom]

My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

Is this typical?

Is your husband older? He may have learned that even though he hates playing games, he has to if he wants to keep his job.

The second thing, I am unsure of. That doesn't sound ENTJish to me. The first ENTJ I ever met was a Navy Commander and he came on like a steamroller. Get on, get out of the way, or get smooshed!

 

[Nocapszy]

Alicia have you seen Pirates of the Silicon Valley?

Steve Jobs, the man who does the opening monologue is the paradigm of the ENTJ.

He's uninterested in petty details, and he can be self sacrificing. See the part where he shaves his beard in an effort to impress the bank owners. Such trivialities are of little importance to ENTJs, but they're perfectly willing to cooperate if it's a requirement for their goal. They decide on ends only, and the plan can often enough flesh itself out as they go along.

Cutler Becket from Pirates of the Caribbean is another good example.

Your husband likely has some grandiose plan that he hasn't told you or anyone else. Often enough they keep it to themselves... Jobs, I believe is trying to take over the world, and is doing a fine job of it, if so. Becket was obviously trying to take over the world, but neither of these people ever said so explicitly. They were also both fairly self sacrificing in the way of miniscule personal preferences. This is, I think due to Fi in the last position. They don't really care about how they feel about themselves, they care about getting their shit in line and getting to work.

It doesn't sound atypical for an ENTJ. He's just bending to the absurd narrow minded whim of the Ford company -- probably run by an ESTJ if they don't even allow guests (potential clients) to use other cars... -- because it doesn't matter to him. Results matter though. You can count results. You can count the number of friends you have, and you can count the number of dollars you make.

Xanders little quip is probably not far off from my above estimations.

 

[Economica]

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

Your post describes a core TP/TJ dynamic in my experience:

A TP will often criticize something simply in order to state that that is how they see it and see whether the other person agrees. If they meet disagreement and it is argued satisfactorily, then they learn something; if they meet agreement, then they bond yes with the other person over the shared judgment. A TJ, on the other hand, generally criticizes something in order to change it. We are more interested in the expediency of the result than we are in the integrity of the process, and unless we are careful not to project this bottom line mentality onto others, we all too easily read a nonexistent purposefulness into the criticism of a TP.

Could your husband be interpreting your criticism as requests that he do something differently when in reality you are just seeking to share how you see things and hear his point of view to reassure yourself that your worldviews are indeed compatible (even if he is not burdened with the need to always act in accordance with his principles )?

When he says "that's just the way it is!, get over it" it sounds to me like he is (annoyed and) either refusing what he imagines to be a passive-aggressive request from you that he not borrow your car (I say passive-aggressive because I assume you were officially okay with him borrowing it) or requesting that you quit being so negative. Based on your posts so far you don't strike me as a downer to have around so my money is on the former.

Methinks talking to him about this could go a long way toward improving your communication and thus your happiness with each other. In trying to understand his priorities you just might rediscover what attracted you to him in the first place.

 

[alicia91]

your husband older? He may have learned that even though he hates playing games, he has to if he wants to keep his job.

Yeah - he's 45 and learned this a long time ago. Before having his own business as a consultant in the auto industry he worked at both GM and Ford - so he knows their games. But I think it's like NoCapszy said, it's just a triviality to him and his end goal is to make money and keep his customers happy. When he was in his 20's he was more cut and dry, but he's gotten a lot better at schmoozing over the years and it's actually really helped his career.

I think what annoys me (yeah, I know this is quite petty) is that when he worked for Ford he complained about some of their 'games.' Yet now that they are his customer - he's perfectly happy to play along and he won't ADMIT that he's going against what he used to complain about. Now that he's making money doing it - it's OK with him! At least if he said 'yeah, that's silly that I have to borrow your truck to please them' then I'd be OK with it.

Results matter though. You can count results. You can count the number of friends you have, and you can count the number of dollars you make.

Yep - that's how he looks at it. Very accurate.

A TP will often criticize something simply in order to state that that is how they see it and see whether the other person agrees. If they meet disagreement and it is argued satisfactorily, then they learn something; if they meet agreement, then they bond () with the other person over the shared judgment. A TJ, on the other hand, generally criticizes something in order to change it. We are more interested in the expediency of the result than we are in the integrity of the process, and unless we are careful not to project this bottom line mentality onto others, we all too easily read a nonexistent purposefulness into the criticism of a TP.

Who needs a counsellor when we have you! THis is completely correct and this is how we communicate every day. But generally it works OK but sometimes get annoyed with each other over certain principles. See, I just want to know that he thinks it's as stupid as I do - he doesn't care when he knows it's a means to an end.

Just a small point of reference - they DO have a lot at Ford where you can park a non-Ford car. It's just a seperate lot way out in Siberia (1/2 mile away?) and it has a nick-name like 'traitors lot' or something similar. He would never park there!

 

[alicia91]

Just want to add that when I tell him that he is being 'unprincipled' he usually just says very matter of factly 'do you want to go on a nice vacation this year?' Then I just say to myself.............. 'I'll shut up now!'

 

[INTJMom]

Just want to add that when I tell him that he is being 'unprincipled' he usually just says very matter of factly 'do you want to go on a nice vacation this year?' Then I just say to myself.............. 'I'll shut up now!'

I wouldn't be surprised if deep down inside he feels forced to compromise even though if given the choice, he'd prefer not to.

 

[Economica]

I think what annoys me (yeah, I know this is quite petty) is that when he worked for Ford he complained about some of their 'games.' Yet now that they are his customer - he's perfectly happy to play along and he won't ADMIT that he's going against what he used to complain about. Now that he's making money doing it - it's OK with him! At least if he said 'yeah, that's silly that I have to borrow your truck to please them' then I'd be OK with it.

I don't think that's petty at all. I'm afraid we're prone to that kind of rationalization, unless our lack of integrity compared with you Ps is felt to be acceptable. That is, we are more likely to acknowledge our inconsistencies (to ourselves as well as to you) when our priority to strategically deviate from our principles is respected. So use disclaimers: If you make it clear that you're not trying to get him to act differently, you're more likely to get a consistent answer. The conflict he reads into your criticism gives him cognitive dissonance, so make it clear that there is no conflict. You let him optimize his result, and he'll have no problem giving you his honest evaluation of the process.

Did I mention that I think talking about your different uses for and understandings of criticism could go a long way?

Who needs a counsellor when we have you!

:blushing:

 

[armstrongvk12]

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow).

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

Is this typical?

It really sounds more like your husband is going along with company policy as he needs or wants to play the corporate game. He realizes that if he wants to go anywhere with the company, he needs to play the game. In terms of adapting himself to meet others' expectations, he is schmoozing (for whatever reason).

I would not describe this as typical, especially the selective schmoozing outside of work. I base the majority of my actions and thoughts on my own thinking, not those of others. Whether or not others agree or disagree with me is irrelevant to me as I do not care what most other people think. Most ENTJs are not really interested in "playing the game." However, this being said...I don't personally know any other ENTJs.

It sounds more like you are annoyed that he is being inconsistent and/or you don't respect the fact that he is schmoozing?

 

[alicia91]

This is very enlightening!

Most ENTJs are not really interested in "playing the game."

That really surprises me since I think of the ENTJ as the 'corporate chief' and executive types and playing the game is a huge part of that.

The conflict he reads into your criticism gives him cognitive dissonance, so make it clear that there is no conflict

From my viewpoint, what I said to him isn't meant as criticism - but of course he takes it that way.

It sounds more like you are annoyed that he is being inconsistent and/or you don't respect the fact that he is schmoozing?

It's not so much the schmoozing that bothers me, I have my own business and have to do some schmoozing also. I guess what bothers me is when someone complains about something then turns around and does it - then I don't want to hear the complaints, ya know? Or at least acknowledge it.

Another example - for years he talked about how he didn't want to do business with the Chinese (in China). There's just a lot of BS about American companies over there -the regulations, the corruption etc. But after hearing about the 'opportunities' over there - his company opened an office there (he's a partner/owner of this business) and now he's playing along with the Chinese gov't. All in the name of business I guess!

Anyhow - he's a great guy and we are soulmates despite our differences.

 

[Gabe]

This sounds closer to a social adaptation commonly jacketed by the ENFP. I'd imagine his fluency with a spectrum of topics (alongside a reasoned awareness of etiquette) makes him sympathetic to a variety of causes.

Yet, the NT is usually stubborn when it comes to personal intuition. As such, I'd imagine his behavior is the result of some larger justification - the need to "fit in", as to avoid petty alienation from his peers. He performs this way when he's in unfamiliar settings, yes?

If he is an ENTJ (sounds like he is) he's using some level of adaptive strategy to protect his interests.

Oh, sure, it's the ENFP who onforms. NOT!. I'll give you a list of types that can be conformist: INTJ, INFJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, ESTP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFP, INFP, INTP, ENFP, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ.

A much better question to ask is "why does someone conform and participate"? The answer, is, if thier core temperment needs are being met.

a corrections: ettiquette is mostly the domain of extraverted feeling.

 

[hotmale]

My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

Is this typical?

From my experience with ENTJs- they are very keen in figuring people out- what moves them, what their motivations are, what their weaknesses are to integrate them into a larger mindset.

For instance, I know an ENTJ male who often makes provocative statements in order to test people's reactions. He figures people out very simply by how they react. It doesn't mean he actually believes in what he is saying- but he wants to know how that will affect another's perspective. Here's an example. ENTJ- oh, let's call him "G" will say to his wife "L" : "Damn those Indians- they are taking over California" or something politically charged to that effect and she will go up in arms and start ranting and raving about how "what you said is just SOOOOOO wrong" and start a discourse on the suffering of Native Americans since their inception of the US complete with a long commentary on X. and all the while "G" is completely amused by L's reaction- but in actuality, he likes the fact that she is so passionate about these various causes of hers because despite his cold facade, he has a very gentle nature.

I think the thing with ENTJs is that you have to understand the subtext of their speech as opposed to taking them all too literally. In that way, you can think your husband seems to be contradicting his speech- but he's probably not. ENTJs tend to be very consistent in their actions, and they don't have false "ideals" which they later decide to throw up in the interests of self-preservation. Rather, they are more motivated by the interests of the many- as opposed to a pure self-interest in which they screw everyone else over so that they can come out on top, which I think is the anti-thesis of the ENTJ mindset. That way, your husband probably feels that in order to achieve his motivation of creating a happy family life--and by making you happy- that to him is his ultimate motivation and because of that- he has to strategically place where his values lie.

 

[Gabe]

My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

Is this typical?

sounds like a crude loyalty of a collectively inferior feeling!

 

[alicia91]

A much better question to ask is "why does someone conform and participate"? The answer, is, if thier core temperment needs are being met.

I think the thing with ENTJs is that you have to understand the subtext of their speech as opposed to taking them all too literally

Good point. I think this is where we differ - I'm very open and on the surface about my thought and beliefs.

That way, your husband probably feels that in order to achieve his motivation of creating a happy family life--and by making you happy- that to him is his ultimate motivation and because of that- he has to strategically place where his values lie.

So true. He even admits this when asked.

 

[substitute]

I've been close to a few ENTJ's in my time, and something I noticed about two of them (not so much the other two) was that if they acknowledged a wrong or error in something, it sorta meant they had to do something about it. I mean, if they acknowledged it to someone else, publicly (even to just one other person). Sometimes if someone complained about something, they'd see it as a request for them to change it, to do something about it. So if they didn't want to, or weren't able to, or whatever, they'd usually answer with something grouchy and impatient sounding.

When one of them would say "Yeah? Well what do you expect me to do about it?" it took me a while to realize that he really meant that - he really thought I was expecting him to do something about it, and finding my expectation unreasonable, decided to use sarcasm to illustrate this.

I think with some ENTJ's it's a case of they sorta expect themselves to do something, and it kinda hurts for them to see things that are screwed up that they can't make an impact on. So other people pointing it out is kinda like rubbing salt in the wound.

 

[Night]

Oh, sure, it's the ENFP who onforms. NOT!. I'll give you a list of types that can be conformist: INTJ, INFJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, ESTP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFP, INFP, INTP, ENFP, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ.

A much better question to ask is "why does someone conform and participate"? The answer, is, if thier core temperment needs are being met.

a corrections: ettiquette is mostly the domain of extraverted feeling.

Actually, if you check my exact language, I use the phrase, "social adaptation" - a behavior that evolves with one's external environment. The correct application of my (albeit personalized) theme is likely entirely opposite to what you might consider, "conformity". To be fair, maybe I should've been more precise with my language.

Speaking of precision, after re-reading my post, I didn't find a single use of the word, "conformity"...