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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    Just want to add that when I tell him that he is being 'unprincipled' he usually just says very matter of factly 'do you want to go on a nice vacation this year?' Then I just say to myself.............. 'I'll shut up now!'
    I wouldn't be surprised if deep down inside he feels forced to compromise even though if given the choice, he'd prefer not to.

  2. #12
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    I think what annoys me (yeah, I know this is quite petty) is that when he worked for Ford he complained about some of their 'games.' Yet now that they are his customer - he's perfectly happy to play along and he won't ADMIT that he's going against what he used to complain about. Now that he's making money doing it - it's OK with him! At least if he said 'yeah, that's silly that I have to borrow your truck to please them' then I'd be OK with it.
    I don't think that's petty at all. I'm afraid we're prone to that kind of rationalization, unless our lack of integrity compared with you Ps is felt to be acceptable. That is, we are more likely to acknowledge our inconsistencies (to ourselves as well as to you) when our priority to strategically deviate from our principles is respected. So use disclaimers: If you make it clear that you're not trying to get him to act differently, you're more likely to get a consistent answer. The conflict he reads into your criticism gives him cognitive dissonance, so make it clear that there is no conflict. You let him optimize his result, and he'll have no problem giving you his honest evaluation of the process.

    Did I mention that I think talking about your different uses for and understandings of criticism could go a long way?

    Who needs a counsellor when we have you!
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow).

    Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

    Is this typical?
    It really sounds more like your husband is going along with company policy as he needs or wants to play the corporate game. He realizes that if he wants to go anywhere with the company, he needs to play the game. In terms of adapting himself to meet others' expectations, he is schmoozing (for whatever reason).

    I would not describe this as typical, especially the selective schmoozing outside of work. I base the majority of my actions and thoughts on my own thinking, not those of others. Whether or not others agree or disagree with me is irrelevant to me as I do not care what most other people think. Most ENTJs are not really interested in "playing the game." However, this being said...I don't personally know any other ENTJs.

    It sounds more like you are annoyed that he is being inconsistent and/or you don't respect the fact that he is schmoozing?

  4. #14
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    This is very enlightening!

    Most ENTJs are not really interested in "playing the game."
    That really surprises me since I think of the ENTJ as the 'corporate chief' and executive types and playing the game is a huge part of that.

    The conflict he reads into your criticism gives him cognitive dissonance, so make it clear that there is no conflict
    From my viewpoint, what I said to him isn't meant as criticism - but of course he takes it that way.

    It sounds more like you are annoyed that he is being inconsistent and/or you don't respect the fact that he is schmoozing?
    It's not so much the schmoozing that bothers me, I have my own business and have to do some schmoozing also. I guess what bothers me is when someone complains about something then turns around and does it - then I don't want to hear the complaints, ya know? Or at least acknowledge it.

    Another example - for years he talked about how he didn't want to do business with the Chinese (in China). There's just a lot of BS about American companies over there -the regulations, the corruption etc. But after hearing about the 'opportunities' over there - his company opened an office there (he's a partner/owner of this business) and now he's playing along with the Chinese gov't. All in the name of business I guess!

    Anyhow - he's a great guy and we are soulmates despite our differences.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This sounds closer to a social adaptation commonly jacketed by the ENFP. I'd imagine his fluency with a spectrum of topics (alongside a reasoned awareness of etiquette) makes him sympathetic to a variety of causes.

    Yet, the NT is usually stubborn when it comes to personal intuition. As such, I'd imagine his behavior is the result of some larger justification - the need to "fit in", as to avoid petty alienation from his peers. He performs this way when he's in unfamiliar settings, yes?

    If he is an ENTJ (sounds like he is) he's using some level of adaptive strategy to protect his interests.
    Oh, sure, it's the ENFP who onforms. NOT!. I'll give you a list of types that can be conformist: INTJ, INFJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, ESTP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFP, INFP, INTP, ENFP, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ.

    A much better question to ask is "why does someone conform and participate"? The answer, is, if thier core temperment needs are being met.

    a corrections: ettiquette is mostly the domain of extraverted feeling.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

    First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

    Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

    Is this typical?
    From my experience with ENTJs- they are very keen in figuring people out- what moves them, what their motivations are, what their weaknesses are to integrate them into a larger mindset.

    For instance, I know an ENTJ male who often makes provocative statements in order to test people's reactions. He figures people out very simply by how they react. It doesn't mean he actually believes in what he is saying- but he wants to know how that will affect another's perspective. Here's an example. ENTJ- oh, let's call him "G" will say to his wife "L" : "Damn those Indians- they are taking over California" or something politically charged to that effect and she will go up in arms and start ranting and raving about how "what you said is just SOOOOOO wrong" and start a discourse on the suffering of Native Americans since their inception of the US complete with a long commentary on X. and all the while "G" is completely amused by L's reaction- but in actuality, he likes the fact that she is so passionate about these various causes of hers because despite his cold facade, he has a very gentle nature.

    I think the thing with ENTJs is that you have to understand the subtext of their speech as opposed to taking them all too literally. In that way, you can think your husband seems to be contradicting his speech- but he's probably not. ENTJs tend to be very consistent in their actions, and they don't have false "ideals" which they later decide to throw up in the interests of self-preservation. Rather, they are more motivated by the interests of the many- as opposed to a pure self-interest in which they screw everyone else over so that they can come out on top, which I think is the anti-thesis of the ENTJ mindset. That way, your husband probably feels that in order to achieve his motivation of creating a happy family life--and by making you happy- that to him is his ultimate motivation and because of that- he has to strategically place where his values lie.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    My husband is officially ENTJ according to professional testing but I'm just wondering about a couple of things - that I find annoying.

    First he tends to justify dumb policies that he has to abide by. For example, today is is going to a business meeting at Ford Headquarters and couldn't drive his car because they won't allow non-Ford vehicles in their parking lot (yes, even for visitors!) - so he took my Ford truck (which sucks because we have 2 ft of snow). So I said something like "just another example of the stupid old-fashioned, blue-collar mentality within this industry that's killing this town.' My husband said 'that's just the way it is!, get over it' It's just one recent example that comes to mind - it's seems like because he must go along with it or live with it - it's OK. But it's not like he sees the world through rose-colored glasses - he's very critical of the world in general. But I guess he thinks it would admit weakness on his part to go along with it if he didn't support it.

    Second, and this is sort of along the same lines. Whenever he is with a crowd, he tends to conform to whatever opinion they share. So he's Mr. Conservative with the conservative crowd, Mr. Liberal with the liberal crowd, etc. This may just be his way of schmoozing - but it makes me respect him less.

    Is this typical?
    sounds like a crude loyalty of a collectively inferior feeling!

  8. #18
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    A much better question to ask is "why does someone conform and participate"? The answer, is, if thier core temperment needs are being met.


    I think the thing with ENTJs is that you have to understand the subtext of their speech as opposed to taking them all too literally
    Good point. I think this is where we differ - I'm very open and on the surface about my thought and beliefs.

    That way, your husband probably feels that in order to achieve his motivation of creating a happy family life--and by making you happy- that to him is his ultimate motivation and because of that- he has to strategically place where his values lie.
    So true. He even admits this when asked.

  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I've been close to a few ENTJ's in my time, and something I noticed about two of them (not so much the other two) was that if they acknowledged a wrong or error in something, it sorta meant they had to do something about it. I mean, if they acknowledged it to someone else, publicly (even to just one other person). Sometimes if someone complained about something, they'd see it as a request for them to change it, to do something about it. So if they didn't want to, or weren't able to, or whatever, they'd usually answer with something grouchy and impatient sounding.

    When one of them would say "Yeah? Well what do you expect me to do about it?" it took me a while to realize that he really meant that - he really thought I was expecting him to do something about it, and finding my expectation unreasonable, decided to use sarcasm to illustrate this.

    I think with some ENTJ's it's a case of they sorta expect themselves to do something, and it kinda hurts for them to see things that are screwed up that they can't make an impact on. So other people pointing it out is kinda like rubbing salt in the wound.
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  10. #20
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Oh, sure, it's the ENFP who onforms. NOT!. I'll give you a list of types that can be conformist: INTJ, INFJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, ESTP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFP, INFP, INTP, ENFP, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTJ, ESTJ.

    A much better question to ask is "why does someone conform and participate"? The answer, is, if thier core temperment needs are being met.

    a corrections: ettiquette is mostly the domain of extraverted feeling.
    Actually, if you check my exact language, I use the phrase, "social adaptation" - a behavior that evolves with one's external environment. The correct application of my (albeit personalized) theme is likely entirely opposite to what you might consider, "conformity". To be fair, maybe I should've been more precise with my language.

    Speaking of precision, after re-reading my post, I didn't find a single use of the word, "conformity"...

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