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  1. #31
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    So you'd prefer to believe in the rationalistic model, despite (admittedly imperfect) empirical evidence to the contrary?

    That's very NTP of you...
    I prefer personal research and introspection. Tests are for those who rather not figure things out for themselves.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    I prefer personal research and introspection. Tests are for those who rather not figure things out for themselves.
    And how about when tests are used as a method of personal research and introspection?

    And introspection as a method of taking tests?

  3. #33
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And how about when tests are used as a method of personal research and introspection?

    And introspection as a method of taking tests?
    Then I call that person lazy and take what they say with a grain of salt. Tests tell you how you answered the questions presented they do not validate the questions nor put them in the correct context. I mean HELLO, they're written by people who are just as flawed/biased as everyone else! And the more you delve into a theory the stronger your biases come.

    Let's look at Se vs Si, in tests many Se based questions excite my Ne tendencies, they're all about jumping into action and enjoying change so I tend to score pretty high on just about every function test out there, thing is reading up on Se tells me in a matter of seconds it's not something I access easily, it takes conscious effort for me to engage in Se activities and there's next to nothing related with Se that I find easy, it just excites me. On the other hand Si often presents as traditional and safe in tests and as my dominant function despises those things I tend to score pretty low, Si just isn't my preference, however read up on Si and it is one of my strong support functions, if often causes issues for me but is definitely there.

    It's a similar deal with Fe v Fi. Group think type behaviour offends my NTness, deciding something based on my own view/morals sounds better to me, if I answer tests honestly they'll both be pretty weak as I do not use them for decision making. Read up on the functions and I'm very clearly and strongly calling on Fe while Fi seems to contradict that for me in most situations so that hardly gets a look in.

    I don't care about having set function order, blindly following that is a touch better than blindly considering a test accurate but either approach requires a person to use that as a base then view themselves as a whole and determine what functions they use. Ne-Ti-Fe-Si fits me just right so the theory proposed works for me, that doesn't reinforce it but presenting test results as evidence to the contrary does nothing to disprove it.

  4. #34
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    The test asks all of 48 questions to determine 8 values. Never mind whether the questions provoke the intended responses in the test takers, based on type, 6 questions per function is fairly limited, even though it has 5 values to choose from.

    I think that the test is very useful for introducing function theory to those who are interested, and seeing how the scores size up as a matter of curiosity. I think that this particular test is decent, if not great, and help self-discovery to a degree. Also, its questions do more closely reflect the functions than standard MBTI tests, both official and unofficial. There is clearly a difference between Se and Si, for example, in the questions, and no generalized notions asking about introversion, extroversion or P vs J. As long as one takes the results with a grain of salt, and not definitive, it's remarkable how it usually conforms with the MBTI results. I'd be shocked if it matched MBTI exactly, since MBTI tests are known to be off 15-25% of the time, and to yield exactly the same errors would be highly unusual. Assuming the errors are totally independent, and this test has a similar error rate to other MBTI tests, the results should line up about 9/16 (62.5%) of the time.

  5. #35
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    If the test is correct then the MBTI is wrong. If the MBTI is right the test is incorrect.

    Because the tertiary function of the ENTP is Si, not Se, and the third is Fe not Fi. If the tertiary function is Si, wouldn't Se be even less present ?
    I usually don't really notice my 'surroundings' unless there's something interesting/different going on, from what would normally be going on.
    ENTP

    Look at how Keirsey uses the four functions. Simply a division = in half.
    12 - - - - 34

    - - - - = 4
    3 + 4 = 7
    4 + 4 = 8
    4/2 = 2

    ENTP

    Ne Ti Fe Si
    Ne Ti - - - - Fe Si

    Fe: 3 + 4 = 7
    Si: 4 + 4 = 8


    - - - - - - = 3 + 3 (in half)

    1 + 3 = 4
    8 - 3 = 5

    in half

    Ne - - - - - - Si
    - - - Ni Se - - -

    in half

    - Ti - - - - Fe -
    - - Te - - Fi - -

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Then I call that person lazy and take what they say with a grain of salt. Tests tell you how you answered the questions presented they do not validate the questions nor put them in the correct context. I mean HELLO, they're written by people who are just as flawed/biased as everyone else! And the more you delve into a theory the stronger your biases come.

    Let's look at Se vs Si, in tests many Se based questions excite my Ne tendencies, they're all about jumping into action and enjoying change so I tend to score pretty high on just about every function test out there, thing is reading up on Se tells me in a matter of seconds it's not something I access easily, it takes conscious effort for me to engage in Se activities and there's next to nothing related with Se that I find easy, it just excites me. On the other hand Si often presents as traditional and safe in tests and as my dominant function despises those things I tend to score pretty low, Si just isn't my preference, however read up on Si and it is one of my strong support functions, if often causes issues for me but is definitely there.

    It's a similar deal with Fe v Fi. Group think type behaviour offends my NTness, deciding something based on my own view/morals sounds better to me, if I answer tests honestly they'll both be pretty weak as I do not use them for decision making. Read up on the functions and I'm very clearly and strongly calling on Fe while Fi seems to contradict that for me in most situations so that hardly gets a look in.

    I don't care about having set function order, blindly following that is a touch better than blindly considering a test accurate but either approach requires a person to use that as a base then view themselves as a whole and determine what functions they use. Ne-Ti-Fe-Si fits me just right so the theory proposed works for me, that doesn't reinforce it but presenting test results as evidence to the contrary does nothing to disprove it.
    Sometimes tests are poorly written. Sometimes people take tests poorly. And sometimes it's a mixture of the two.

    But to consider people lazy because they introspect when taking tests or use tests as a method of personal research and introspection is not only nonsensical, but it's, well... lazy.

    It's one method amongst many to investigate this stuff, and it by no means need be one's only method.

  7. #37
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You're seeing the theory break down here.

    For most of the NTPs I've seen take this test, their Fi is higher than their Fe.

    Shouldn't be that way according to strict MBTI function order...
    P introverts the rational function. Therefore with P, Fi is higher than Fe; Ti is higher than Te. With J it is vice versa. Especially according to strict MBTI function order.
    Look at the first two functions of the eight Ps and the eights Js of the 16 types. What do you find there? Rules do not change in the middle of the chain of the order.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    P introverts the rational function. Therefore with P, Fi is higher than Fe; Ti is higher than Te. With J it is vice versa. Especially according to strict MBTI function order.
    Well, yes, but only for the first rational function.

    The second rational function is supposed to have the opposite attitude of the first.

    I know Jung thought differently, but the currently dominant paradigm broke from what Jung said.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Look at the first two functions of the eight Ps and the eights Js of the 16 types. What do you find there? Rules do not change in the middle of the chain of the order.
    Same as above...

    I mean, under the rules you're propounding, INTJs would have higher Fe than Fi, and trust me, if you go over to that thread, it is not the case by any means...

  9. #39
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    There are mine:
    Ne (excellent) > Ti (excellent) > Te (good) > Fi (average) > Fe (average) > Si = Se (average) > Ni (limited).

    Why do I now get visions of a gloating Te?
    And that Ni is not my weakest. That one is able to keep me awake at night with all sorts of disaster scenarios. I just don't trust it. Too pessimistic.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  10. #40
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, yes, but only for the first rational function.

    The second rational function is supposed to have the opposite attitude of the first.

    I know Jung thought differently, but the currently dominant paradigm broke from what Jung said.



    Same as above...

    I mean, under the rules you're propounding, INTJs would have higher Fe than Fi, and trust me, if you go over to that thread, it is not the case by any means...
    Thanks for the wink.

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