[NT] NTP visulaization?

[sculpting]

View attachment PMP Process groups c.pdf

My ENTP best friend is a Project manager and works for an ENFP. She also has to deal with me all day. She appreciates your sympathy.

So she drew up the attached chart (The attached pdf) and explained that this is what Ti is like in her mind-all of these lines and boxes and details. I looked at this and was like WTF?

She started laughing as she said her ENFP boss gave it the same look.

When I look at this parts of my brain become kinked. I explained that I would have neglected all of the details and had big blobs around each cluster of details, but I would still have the flow chart model in my mind. She said she has memorized each set of details and steps through them in her mind to solve problems.

In contrast she said the ESTJ model of project management ignores internal process in each cluster but focuses on the list of outcomes-thus in a famous ESTJ project management book, it ignores the middle parts of all the clusters.

It was striking to me as her diagram here-in form-was almost identical to the drawing my ENTP friend had on his wall outlining breaking down an industry into all of the different segments, subsegements, and so on-lots of small little boxes, lines, and detailed clusters.

Anyways I figured I would post it just to see if it resonates with the NTP folks at all.

 

[sculpting]

I totally just spelled visualization wrong....I shall go back to the NF forum now....

 

[KDude]

I know you're just asking NTs, but I'm curious what an INTP is like in relation to that. Forget the Ti, that chart seems very extroverted. I know your friend is a project manager, and that's part of their job, but the approach in general (or an ESTJ approach) is very alien to me.

 

[Strappado]

That looks pretty accurate to me. I'd try to compare how I think for comparison, but I'm pretty sure it'd make absolutely no sense.

 

[sculpting]

I couldnt help but notice barbie is naked in your avi. If she is going to be cooked by savage ENFPs, she should at least be dressed first.

Kdude, the ENTP friend said she'd expect the intps not to have loops-but instead very specific discrete linkages and lists, who knows though..

 

[INTPness]

This thread reminds me of something I read on INTPcentral recently in regards to Ti/Ne:

The Ne-Ti axis also leads to a curious duality in the thinking of the INTP. The dominant Ti core tends to assume the role of a controller and organiser of his life, while the Ne behaves like a free spirit, almost childlike in its enthusiasm. The INTP tends to experience these two forces as an almost continuous tug-of-war, with neither ever quite gaining the upper hand. He is not disturbed by this duality and can view it with wistful humour. If he has been free-spiriting for any length of time, he soon feels duty bound to analyse his behaviour and systematise it. While if he has been in an analytical mode for a while, he will soon decide that he can do what he wants freely after all.

I find that description to be very familiar. FWIW, here's an example of what a typical day might look like in my head (I'll lay in bed the night before, mapping this out in my mind before I drift off into a peaceful sleep): When Ti is in control, I'm the most productive. When Ne is in control, I have the most fun and really enjoy life. When Ti and Ne are able to work together (i.e., analyze this problem logically and then come up with a creative solution for it, or spend a day working in my friend's store (Ne) and then map out everything that needs to be done to improve results and profits (Ti), then life is really good!

 

[Redbone]

Mine looks more like large bubbles: clean house

And then smaller satellite bubbles: vacuum, clean bathrooms, mop floors

And then even smaller satellite bubbles: pick stuff off of floor so you can vacuum, make sure bleach and rags are in the bathroom to clean it....

That sort of thing. I see things in such wholes that it is extremely hard to break them down especially into sequential things. I have to make mind maps like the above to accomplish tasks. Sometimes I will have someone to help me with this if it is a very big project. This can be difficult though because they will often start a list and I may go out of order or immediately start thinking of ways to change things so that I can get more accomplish with less effort. Sometimes this works and sometimes I waste time doing this.

 

[INTPness]

^Yeah, each item can definitely be broken down further into smaller subcategories, if necessary.

 

[Totenkindly]

Anyways I figured I would post it just to see if it resonates with the NTP folks at all.

"Business" in one of the very first boxes is misspelled.

ARRRGGG -- I've been living in SJ world too long, I've gotten infected!!!!

The Ne-Ti axis also leads to a curious duality in the thinking of the INTP. The dominant Ti core tends to assume the role of a controller and organiser of his life, while the Ne behaves like a free spirit, almost childlike in its enthusiasm. The INTP tends to experience these two forces as an almost continuous tug-of-war, with neither ever quite gaining the upper hand. He is not disturbed by this duality and can view it with wistful humour. If he has been free-spiriting for any length of time, he soon feels duty bound to analyse his behaviour and systematise it. While if he has been in an analytical mode for a while, he will soon decide that he can do what he wants freely after all.

That. My Ne keeps bounding around like a spray of helium balloons, and my Ti keeps trying to keep them connected and rein them in. I veer back to the middle after going in either direction too long; it's like two black holes orbiting each other.

Personally, I found the diagram a little too confusing. I don't use curvy lines when I try to do rational flows. My flows are all very clean, even if there are lots of nuanced processes in there. Maybe this is your friend's Ne primary taking the fore over a clean rational line.

 

[Totenkindly]

Anyways I figured I would post it just to see if it resonates with the NTP folks at all.

"Business" in one of the very first boxes is misspelled.

ARRRGGG -- I've been living in SJ world too long, I've gotten infected!!!!

The Ne-Ti axis also leads to a curious duality in the thinking of the INTP. The dominant Ti core tends to assume the role of a controller and organiser of his life, while the Ne behaves like a free spirit, almost childlike in its enthusiasm. The INTP tends to experience these two forces as an almost continuous tug-of-war, with neither ever quite gaining the upper hand. He is not disturbed by this duality and can view it with wistful humour. If he has been free-spiriting for any length of time, he soon feels duty bound to analyse his behaviour and systematise it. While if he has been in an analytical mode for a while, he will soon decide that he can do what he wants freely after all.

That. My Ne keeps bounding around like a spray of helium balloons, and my Ti keeps trying to keep them connected and rein them in. I veer back to the middle after going in either direction too long; it's like two black holes orbiting each other.

Personally, I found the diagram a little too confusing. I don't use curvy lines when I try to do rational flows. My flows are all very clean, even if there are lots of nuanced processes in there. Maybe this is your friend's Ne primary taking the fore over a clean rational line.

 

[INTPness]

Personally, I found the diagram a little too confusing. I don't use curvy lines when I try to do rational flows. My flows are all very clean, even if there are lots of nuanced processes in there. Maybe this is your friend's Ne primary taking the fore over a clean rational line.

The "curvy" lines in the OP's chart also irritated me. I wanted the OP's chart to be more "clean", as you say, and to have a clear flow from one thing to another. I found that chart to be too messy for my tastes, but that's probably the difference between Ne-dom and Ti-dom. The Ne portion of my chart was also the "messy part" of my chart, but Ti still wants the overall picture to be clean and easy to decipher.

 

[sleepy]

Ignore the lines and the sub boxes. Then it's relatively clean and systematic.

 

[Totenkindly]

The "curvy" lines in the OP's chart also irritated me. I wanted the OP's chart to be more "clean", as you say, and to have a clear flow from one thing to another. I found that chart to be too messy for my tastes, but that's probably the difference between Ne-dom and Ti-dom. The Ne portion of my chart was also the "messy part" of my chart, but Ti still wants the overall picture to be clean and easy to decipher.

Yeah, once I started doing business process flows, I found I enjoyed setting all the parallel processes, pools/lanes, forks, and whatever else up neatly.... and structuring it so it was visibly clean.... at least as much as possible.

Ignore the lines and the sub boxes. Then it's relatively clean and systematic.

Charts like this are kind of useless, if you don't know how things are connected.

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

I agree Jennifer

Yeah, once I started doing business process flows, I found I enjoyed setting all the parallel processes, pools/lanes, forks, and whatever else up neatly.... and structuring it so it was visibly clean.... at least as much as possible.

Charts like this are kind of useless, if you don't know how things are connected.

I'm SO with you there - I simply loathe the even more "creative" charts that have {{{cloud}}} like boxes! Clean, simple, elegant and easy to follow is how I structure my flows and everyone seems to understand them. I use colour backgrounds to differentiate processes in the flow but that is my limit of fancifulness.

I cannot however control the maps that appear in my brain when solving problems tho. They are 3D and show possible consequences of many tangential processes. I can view them from multiple perspectives, and evaluate the possible consequences before choosing a pathway.

 

[entropie]

I totally dislike flow charts or any kind of attempt to picture any complex human system. In 99% of the times the chart is inaccurate and not corresponding to reality cause it ignores detail. For example if a flow chart says that the F&E project manager has to report directly to the audit office, but then the other day the guy from the audit office is ill and he has to go to one level on top of that which effectively delayed a process by let's say 2 days, any statistics afterwards will be failure.

I am personally kinda nazi with this, I think of people who pride themselves in making statistics or flow charts as incompetent, cause it holds no real value to me making a flow chart, but to just give some people a monthly income. I am personally very fucked with organigrams thru my University. They are planning everything and organizing the planning for 3 months until they actually do something. I dunno, I work best hands on, if I can immediantly start working on a project. I have good organisational skills and am a master at keeping the overview, I personally consider studieing a flow chart of a process before I start the process to be a massive waste of time.

But well one cant have everything. The op's flow chart is catastrophic. I had to scale it to 300 % turn it to be able to read anything at all. And after that I wasnt able to follow the curves without a lot of scrolling and that tho I have a 24 inch screen.

Dunno I just hate statistics.

I tho do like electrical circuits, they totally wake up my enthusiasm

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/59835/Schaltplan.png

Or this one, rrrrrrrr:

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/59836/Layout.png

 

[Qlip]

This thread is one more nail in the coffin of my INTP identity, I guess Ti really isn't my thing. I'll have to switch letters when I figure out what the new ones are. My brain only resembles this chart in a physical fasion as the diagram looks a little bit like a neuron cluster. Take the chart, jumble it up, but keep all the spaghetti strings connected, throw it into a drawer, and task a blind man retrieve bits by following the threads by touch and you have my brain.

 

[INTPness]

I totally dislike flow charts or any kind of attempt to picture any complex human system. In 99% of the times the chart is inaccurate and not corresponding to reality cause it ignores detail. For example if a flow chart says that the F&E project manager has to report directly to the audit office, but then the other day the guy from the audit office is ill and he has to go to one level on top of that which effectively delayed a process by let's say 2 days, any statistics afterwards will be failure.

I am personally kinda nazi with this, I think of people who pride themselves in making statistics or flow charts as incompetent, cause it holds no real value to me making a flow chart, but to just give some people a monthly income. I am personally very fucked with organigrams thru my University. They are planning everything and organizing the planning for 3 months until they actually do something. I dunno, I work best hands on, if I can immediantly start working on a project. I have good organisational skills and am a master at keeping the overview, I personally consider studieing a flow chart of a process before I start the process to be a massive waste of time.

But well one cant have everything. The op's flow chart is catastrophic. I had to scale it to 300 % turn it to be able to read anything at all. And after that I wasnt able to follow the curves without a lot of scrolling and that tho I have a 24 inch screen.

Dunno I just hate statistics.

I tho do like electrical circuits, they totally wake up my enthusiasm

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/59835/Schaltplan.png

Or this one, rrrrrrrr:

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/59836/Layout.png

Forget the term "flow chart". Do you have a tendency when using Ti to "organize thoughts" inside your mind? I don't really have a flow chart in my mind - I wouldn't want to be that anal, but there's an organization of ideas for sure. And in my mind, that organization is very neat and tidy. But, it's extremely flexible. You make a good point about "if Bob is ill tomorrow then the whole flow chart is a massive fail". I think NTP's are great at contingencies. We're able to bend and flex as the situation dictates. So, although I may have things organized in my mind how they will most likely happen, I know that I may have to adjust. In fact, that's probably a key difference between P's and J's. I have no problem adjusting my plans according to how the day plays out. I think a lot of J's get frustrated when things don't go how they had hoped. If my plans for the day relied on the fact that Bob would show up and then he suddenly doesn't show up, it's not really that big of a deal. I'm simply going to think of a way to work on the project without Bob being present (do it myself, call another expert to fill in for him, complete the project using an entirely different method altogether, or maybe I'll just have to wait until he returns to work tomorrow or next week). Either way, my "plans" are always in pencil (sort of a "skeleton" outline of how I'd like things to go) and are quite frequently revised throughout the day. I think this "flexing" and "reframing" of things is pretty common with P's.

 

[Redbone]

^That is it! It's all neat upstairs but I have trouble converting it to what I think of as a two-dimensional representation. My thoughts don't work like that but when trying to convey them in that kind of system makes it look messy as all get out...like that OP's chart. This is why I often dislike talking to people about certain ideas because I struggle with trying to compress all of that into words or steps.

I'm not explaining this well, either, am I? Will the excuse of not having my afternoon coffee help save me?

 

[93JC]

This doesn't resonate with me at all. Flow charts are the antithesis of my thought processes. I don't organize my thoughts like that at all.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I think Ti isn't necessarily actually organizing information as it would seem that Ti merely found that the logical way to decipher and organize information and remove contradictions was to make the area (their mind) as clean as possible. Ti helped form the motivation to organize, but it didn't really organize it, that's Te's job. Ideas?