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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Personally, I found the diagram a little too confusing. I don't use curvy lines when I try to do rational flows. My flows are all very clean, even if there are lots of nuanced processes in there. Maybe this is your friend's Ne primary taking the fore over a clean rational line.
    The "curvy" lines in the OP's chart also irritated me. I wanted the OP's chart to be more "clean", as you say, and to have a clear flow from one thing to another. I found that chart to be too messy for my tastes, but that's probably the difference between Ne-dom and Ti-dom. The Ne portion of my chart was also the "messy part" of my chart, but Ti still wants the overall picture to be clean and easy to decipher.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  2. #12
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    Ignore the lines and the sub boxes. Then it's relatively clean and systematic.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    The "curvy" lines in the OP's chart also irritated me. I wanted the OP's chart to be more "clean", as you say, and to have a clear flow from one thing to another. I found that chart to be too messy for my tastes, but that's probably the difference between Ne-dom and Ti-dom. The Ne portion of my chart was also the "messy part" of my chart, but Ti still wants the overall picture to be clean and easy to decipher.
    Yeah, once I started doing business process flows, I found I enjoyed setting all the parallel processes, pools/lanes, forks, and whatever else up neatly.... and structuring it so it was visibly clean.... at least as much as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy View Post
    Ignore the lines and the sub boxes. Then it's relatively clean and systematic.
    Charts like this are kind of useless, if you don't know how things are connected.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Default I agree Jennifer ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, once I started doing business process flows, I found I enjoyed setting all the parallel processes, pools/lanes, forks, and whatever else up neatly.... and structuring it so it was visibly clean.... at least as much as possible.

    Charts like this are kind of useless, if you don't know how things are connected.
    I'm SO with you there - I simply loathe the even more "creative" charts that have {{{cloud}}} like boxes! Clean, simple, elegant and easy to follow is how I structure my flows and everyone seems to understand them. I use colour backgrounds to differentiate processes in the flow but that is my limit of fancifulness.

    I cannot however control the maps that appear in my brain when solving problems tho. They are 3D and show possible consequences of many tangential processes. I can view them from multiple perspectives, and evaluate the possible consequences before choosing a pathway.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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  5. #15
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I totally dislike flow charts or any kind of attempt to picture any complex human system. In 99% of the times the chart is inaccurate and not corresponding to reality cause it ignores detail. For example if a flow chart says that the F&E project manager has to report directly to the audit office, but then the other day the guy from the audit office is ill and he has to go to one level on top of that which effectively delayed a process by let's say 2 days, any statistics afterwards will be failure.

    I am personally kinda nazi with this, I think of people who pride themselves in making statistics or flow charts as incompetent, cause it holds no real value to me making a flow chart, but to just give some people a monthly income. I am personally very fucked with organigrams thru my University. They are planning everything and organizing the planning for 3 months until they actually do something. I dunno, I work best hands on, if I can immediantly start working on a project. I have good organisational skills and am a master at keeping the overview, I personally consider studieing a flow chart of a process before I start the process to be a massive waste of time.

    But well one cant have everything. The op's flow chart is catastrophic. I had to scale it to 300 % turn it to be able to read anything at all. And after that I wasnt able to follow the curves without a lot of scrolling and that tho I have a 24 inch screen.

    Dunno I just hate statistics.

    I tho do like electrical circuits, they totally wake up my enthusiasm

    http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attac...Schaltplan.png

    Or this one, rrrrrrrr:

    http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attac...836/Layout.png
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #16
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    This thread is one more nail in the coffin of my INTP identity, I guess Ti really isn't my thing. I'll have to switch letters when I figure out what the new ones are. My brain only resembles this chart in a physical fasion as the diagram looks a little bit like a neuron cluster. Take the chart, jumble it up, but keep all the spaghetti strings connected, throw it into a drawer, and task a blind man retrieve bits by following the threads by touch and you have my brain.

  7. #17
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I totally dislike flow charts or any kind of attempt to picture any complex human system. In 99% of the times the chart is inaccurate and not corresponding to reality cause it ignores detail. For example if a flow chart says that the F&E project manager has to report directly to the audit office, but then the other day the guy from the audit office is ill and he has to go to one level on top of that which effectively delayed a process by let's say 2 days, any statistics afterwards will be failure.

    I am personally kinda nazi with this, I think of people who pride themselves in making statistics or flow charts as incompetent, cause it holds no real value to me making a flow chart, but to just give some people a monthly income. I am personally very fucked with organigrams thru my University. They are planning everything and organizing the planning for 3 months until they actually do something. I dunno, I work best hands on, if I can immediantly start working on a project. I have good organisational skills and am a master at keeping the overview, I personally consider studieing a flow chart of a process before I start the process to be a massive waste of time.

    But well one cant have everything. The op's flow chart is catastrophic. I had to scale it to 300 % turn it to be able to read anything at all. And after that I wasnt able to follow the curves without a lot of scrolling and that tho I have a 24 inch screen.

    Dunno I just hate statistics.

    I tho do like electrical circuits, they totally wake up my enthusiasm

    http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attac...Schaltplan.png

    Or this one, rrrrrrrr:

    http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attac...836/Layout.png
    Forget the term "flow chart". Do you have a tendency when using Ti to "organize thoughts" inside your mind? I don't really have a flow chart in my mind - I wouldn't want to be that anal, but there's an organization of ideas for sure. And in my mind, that organization is very neat and tidy. But, it's extremely flexible. You make a good point about "if Bob is ill tomorrow then the whole flow chart is a massive fail". I think NTP's are great at contingencies. We're able to bend and flex as the situation dictates. So, although I may have things organized in my mind how they will most likely happen, I know that I may have to adjust. In fact, that's probably a key difference between P's and J's. I have no problem adjusting my plans according to how the day plays out. I think a lot of J's get frustrated when things don't go how they had hoped. If my plans for the day relied on the fact that Bob would show up and then he suddenly doesn't show up, it's not really that big of a deal. I'm simply going to think of a way to work on the project without Bob being present (do it myself, call another expert to fill in for him, complete the project using an entirely different method altogether, or maybe I'll just have to wait until he returns to work tomorrow or next week). Either way, my "plans" are always in pencil (sort of a "skeleton" outline of how I'd like things to go) and are quite frequently revised throughout the day. I think this "flexing" and "reframing" of things is pretty common with P's.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #18
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    ^That is it! It's all neat upstairs but I have trouble converting it to what I think of as a two-dimensional representation. My thoughts don't work like that but when trying to convey them in that kind of system makes it look messy as all get out...like that OP's chart. This is why I often dislike talking to people about certain ideas because I struggle with trying to compress all of that into words or steps.

    I'm not explaining this well, either, am I? Will the excuse of not having my afternoon coffee help save me?

  9. #19
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    This doesn't resonate with me at all. Flow charts are the antithesis of my thought processes. I don't organize my thoughts like that at all.

  10. #20
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    I think Ti isn't necessarily actually organizing information as it would seem that Ti merely found that the logical way to decipher and organize information and remove contradictions was to make the area (their mind) as clean as possible. Ti helped form the motivation to organize, but it didn't really organize it, that's Te's job. Ideas?

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