[NT] ENFP confused by INTx

[AgentF]

Hi everyone,

As an ENFP* dating an INTx, I am thoroughly confused. I have been dating my INTx for nearly 3 months. We met online and are both recovering from previous serious relationships, yet obviously wanted companionship enough to post/reply to an online ad. We have a lovely intellectual bond, enjoy spending periodic time together (~ 2x/week), and can discuss things in minute detail for hours on end. He has slowly introduced me to a few of his friends. We also have an amazing physical bond and shower each other with affection when we're together.

That's the good. The not-so-good is that we move at a very different pace and seem to need very different things of each other emotionally. After 2.5 months, I am ready/able to explore a committed relationship with him (I see it as an adventure, even if one or both of us gets hurt). He, conversely, is *extremely* cautious and has admitted that he is intentionally curbing the amount of time he spends with me in order to make sure he doesn't get hurt again by jumping into a serious relationship. He also has an uncharacteristically busy social schedule for an I[ntrovert], and often feels pulled in many directions (which causes him stress, so I back off and let him do 90% of the initiating). The end result is that he sees me intermittently, texts only occasionally (with taciturn but sometimes sweet messages), and accepts my random affectionate comments but doesn't reciprocate.

I have done my best to accept the above, as it's only been 2.5 months. However, I am specifically confused about three things he has said or done:

1) Angst/Guilt: A month after we started dating, we fell into a conversation about "us." He told me that he cared about me but felt "guilt" and "angst" over us. ("I care, of course I care...it's important to me that you know that I do care about you, even though I cannot be a constant for you right now, and that is something that causes me angst and guilt."). This completely baffled me. As an ENFP, I cannot imagine spending time with a person, showering him with affection, being playful/whimsical/physical while simultaneously harboring angst and guilt towards them. I don't do well with emotional ambiguity. Is this something salient to INTx's? (He's borderline J/P but dominant J);

2) Emotional Ambiguity: He recently initiated another talk about our relationship, which surprised me. In this discussion we both agreed that we're both still healing, but also affirmed that we ultimately want a committed/live-in relationship with someone one day. He then told me that there is always a certain degree of "gray area" in most relationships before each person determines how they really feel about the other. I simply cannot relate: I'm black/white with my feelings! I don't casually like someone: when I like someone, I'm affectionate, demonstrative, loving, adoring. (Hopefully not overbearing (my INTx is teaching me not to be). If I'm ambiguous about them I don't pursue anything with them. Life is too short to waste my time. At any rate, the stereotype about ENFPs being overly enthusiastic puppy dogs is in my case quite true). My question to you is: what does it take to get an INTx out of the gray area?

3) Random Intervals/Lack of Pre-Planning: I happen to know that this man is a romantic, at least in previous serious relationships. When he wants to see me, however, he generally only asks me out 1-2 days in advance. I realize it's my job to teach him how to treat me, and ask for more advance notice, but I get hurt each time as it seems disrespectful and indicative of a certain lack of regard/interest (which contradicts his affectionate actions when we're together). Any advice about his lack of pre-planning? Is this an INTx trait or does he lack the courage to tell me he just doesn't feel strongly enough about me to pre-plan?

Thanks for your help, everyone...


* I'm really more of an ENxP...mathmatical logic was my favorite subject at university and I can control my emotions externally, but am tormented by them inside :/ (I have that in common with my INTx.)

 

[JocktheMotie]

1. Guilty simply because you're into him and he's into you but doesn't know if he can guarantee the sort of reciprocity that he thinks you're looking for and deserve.

2. I don't know if INTs consider the existence of feelings to be important in themselves [I know I don't], it's all what you do with them. While he may have feelings for you, he may not be sure what he wants to do with them or is still going through the logistics of whether it will work, will be good for him, will be good for you [tying into that guilt thing], etc. So, it sounds like he's having physical feelings of happy/like/limerance whatever you want to call it, but his brain is still trying to catch up, shouting "WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN."

3. I tend to not pre-plan random dates too far in advance, simply because I don't know what I'm tonight, never mind two days down the road. If this bothers you now it could be make or break because suggestion he change that might be considered controlling or needy.

 

[AgentF]

1. Guilty - That's a nice way of looking at it. I assumed his guilt was directed at me, rather than the situation. But you're right, he said he felt guilt "about us." It just seemed so *oblique* and not action-oriented. When I feel guilty about something, I feel compelled to change it...he, on the other hand, seemed familiar with guilt and angst, at least enough to state that he felt them without a particular plan to address them.

2. Feelings - Ok, that's simply fascinating. How can feelings in and of themselves not be important! Being a typical ENFP, I assign [too] much importance to my feelings, which is why I try moderating them through a filter of logic as I mature. But there will always be within me the urge to act on those feelings, draw conclusions from them, etc. In his case, it sounds like there never is an "aha" moment at which point he would realize he is in love. I am starting to suspect it is a gradual process and that he is actually comfortable with a gray area. Again, very different from me.

3. Controlling/Needy - I'm very aware of coming across as needy/controlling. He has been *very* quick to point out an occasion where he felt I was demanding. Needy is a tricky one...as an emotional person, I guess I am needier than he is. He actually needs personal space, which baffles me. I like it and am learning to enjoy it more, but would never think of making that a requirement for a relationship. I always assume it's just part of a healthy dynamic, not something you are afraid of losing...

Anyway, thanks for your insight. If I could one day understand the INTx concept of love, I would be much more comfortable proceeding with getting close to this person.

 

[INTP]

intp and intj are totally different creatures, even tho they look similar on the surface. each function they use are opposites, Ti vs Te, Ne vs Ni, Si vs Se, Fe vs Fi. if you get personal opinion from intp to this, it might be totally different what your intj is thinking, even tho it might seem right.

what comes to that ENXP thing of your, liking math doesent make you any more T or any less F and ENTPs seems to have difficult time controlling their emotions externally(especially when they get pissed off at you), due to tert Fe. ENFPs when pissed off tend to use their Te to ignore/filter things based on rational thinking, making them look cold outside(Te face), but feeling like crap inside(due to Fi), but ofc any type can lose their control with external emotions.

 

[AgentF]

Thank you, INTP. I suspected I may have got it wrong, as I'm admittedly new to Jungian functional notation/theories.

And I'm a slave to my emotions. I hate to be controlled by anything, but regardless of how hard I try to filter and rationalize them, my emotions still exhaust me.

 

[entropie]

Aint we all confused by INTX ?

Aint we all a slave to our emotions ?

Aint we all blind to the wodden hammer with which I like to hit my head with ?

 

[INTP]

Aint we all confused by INTX ?

Aint we all a slave to our emotions ?

Aint we all blind to the wodden hammer with which I like to hit my head with ?

no.

and enfps are much more confusing than intx

 

[rav3n]

no.

and enfps are much more confusing than intx

You've got to be kidding! ENFPs are some of the most straight-forward people ever met.

 

[Thalassa]

no.

and enfps are much more confusing than intx

Wrong. An ENFP knows exactly what they want and will tell you.

An INTx will endlessly confuse you with cunning and baffling behavior, then wonder why you're "overreacting" to things that I think most normal people would "overreact" to in a similar situation.

Agent Furrina the only advice I can give you is to not allow yourself to feel bad for being who you are...I've noticed that INTx men have intermittently had that effect on me in my life, like they made me feel like I was doing something "wrong" by being emotional.

However, my suggestion is also that the more you try to hem him in, the more you're going to push him away, so seriously...try not to think about him over much or ask for more from him at this juncture, until he's decided for himself that he wants a more serious relationship. If you try to push him in that direction, even in a less direct manner...you'll just push him away, I think.

 

[Craft]

You've got to be kidding! ENFPs are some of the most straight-forward people ever met.

Well, I think ENFP's are confusing as in they're too "everywhere", but their pretty simple.

Serious INxx's are probably the hardest to understand. It's that introversion + intuition.

---

As for me, There was a recent event wherein my teacher(INTJ i think) told me right in the face: "what are you thinking? I just can't figure it out. What is in that head of yours?" I lol'ed inside. The actuality of the situation was that I just didn't have anything to express. (except for my "lol" which I didn't feel like expressing anyways) It's not because its hidden, its because there's nothing in there in the first place. God, I'm so boring. :rolli:

As for OP, I'm thinking it probably wouldn't work out. But I know nots bout relationships.

 

[Thalassa]

As for OP, I'm thinking it probably wouldn't work out. But I know nots bout relationships.

I think this may be a problem with a lot of INTx...they know nots about relationships, may even understand next to nothing about other humans, and just behave affronted if you aren't as rational as they are with very little concept of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

I guess maybe ISTx could be that way, I mean lacking in "people smarts" especially at a young age, but since they're more in touch with the "here and now" they adapt better, or maybe just don't over-analyze things to the point of pushing people away like some INTx can do.

But you guys are okay with that...I think INTx are okay with being alone. And I think INTJs are the most rigid, and probably the stereotypical reason that ENFPs will end up with INTJs is ironically because they're needy and expressive enough to be a bit pushy on a rigid person. It seems like with some it almost takes that.

 

[INTP]

lies, intps are the most straight-forward people, enfps are mentally built to confuse. but luckily intps are built to understand things that seem confusing

if i would be in that situation i think the best way would be to give me room, more that i asked for. this would make me realize how retard i was and come running after you. but im an intp, and it would most likely be different with an intj.

how do you know that he is an intj?

 

[AgentF]

marmalade.sunrise: thank you. i agree with what you've said. it's actually astonished me how this guy always comes around whenever i give him a wide berth (as i said, i let him initiate the vast majority of contact). being a single ENFP, i date a lot, and most other men would have lost interest had i never initiated contact along the way. my INFP, however, always comes around after a period of silence. not as frequently as i'd like, but he eventually reaches out and either asks me out, or tries to engage me by emailing me thought-provoking questions on my inner nature, psyche, etc. at first, i was confused by his questions (doesn't he want to *see* me, instead of *inquire about* me?!) but i've decided that his questions originate from a sincere desire to know me.

i've also come to the conclusion that his toe-tipping into relationship waters is an indication of how much (gulp) he may like me. hard to fathom as it's counter-intuitive for an ENFP, but if i very, very carefully parse his statements on his feelings for me + his actions, a picture emerges of a very sweet, loving, cautious romantic who wants to make the right choice for himself and who--shockingly--also wants to be responsible towards me and my feelings by not over-committing.

i joked with him recently about not minding his "glacier-like" pace of getting to know me. we both smiled about it, which was a relief as that is the closest i've been willing to let him know i'd like to see more of him. i've never been around a personality that requires such delicate handling...tell me you love me once a day, hug me in the morning (or more ), and i'm happy as a lark. but this type seems to internalize everything and gets scared away by the slightest hint of control, domination or manipulation. and so i let him be dominant, but he's emotionally sensitive to boot! :/

 

[Thalassa]

@ INTP: I have no idea. Her man could be INTP. I was just babbling about INTx.

Agent Furrina: they're so delicate and require so much compromise that it doesn't surprise me that many of them seem to be on-line complaining about never having had a gf, or not being able to keep one, or just expressing how super picky they are and no one is going to live up to their expectations.

Again, I think this is why the stereotype of every NT needs an NF exists...I don't think another T (unless they were very in touch with their feelings) would be patient enough to compromise around what appears to almost be arrogance in terms of being available to a relationship, and an SF would get bored and find someone more accessible.

Anyway, good luck. It sounds like he does like you of course, and you've gotten this far, so you've actually made great progress with him!

 

[INTP]

dont listen to marm, she is really an ISFJ

 

[Thalassa]

dont listen to marm, she is really an ISFJ

INTP has never spoken to me privately in PM or off the forum or even in vent, and he doesn't speak English very well, so any assessment he has of my type I see as null and invalid.

FTR, no other person - not even one - has ever suggested ISFJ for me.

*beats the bad INTP with a newspaper*

 

[INTP]

INTP has never spoken to me privately in PM or off the forum or even in vent, and he doesn't speak English very well, so any assessment he has of my type I see as null and invalid.

FTR, no other person - not even one - has ever suggested ISFJ for me.

*beats the bad INTP with a newspaper*

clear Si there, only concentrating on what has happened and what hasn't

 

[AgentF]

on the subject of directness:

i agree with marmalade.sunrise that ENFPs know exactly what they want. perhaps it's the mature (or honest) ENFPs who do this best, but i do not maintain gray areas in my relationships with people. when i love you, you know it...you are showered with hugs, kisses and double rainbows you rarely have to ask me how i feel, as i'm happy to express that via both verbal and non-verbal means 24/7.

INTP: it's true that i have found my INTx to be very honest/precise/factual. he not only seems incontrovertibly programmed to be truthful, he seems to sincerely value honest communication and make it a conscious choice. however, when it comes to articulating emotions, i've found him extremely hard to pin down. referring back to my original post, he argued that most relationships have a certain degree of gray area prior to establishing a commitment. not gray area on a casual-->committed gradient, but gray area from a like-->in love gradient. which is to say (i asked him to clarify), he is never sure how he feels about someone while casually dating, up until the moment he decides to commit. somehow at that moment he magically arrives at the conclusion that he feels strongly enough to commit, and decides to. i'm being facetious about the magic involved: i suspect it's the product of a herculean amount of weighty analysis.

the question remains: how is an ENFP supposed to ride this kind of gray wave? i've learned to retreat into my mind. let him be himself and trust that he probably misses me somewhere. it hurts like hell when he withdraws, but i recently told him (when he expressed regret over not being able to be more of a constant in my life) that i have decided that his inability to spend more time with me has less to do with me, than it has to do with him and things he's struggling with. his reply? "Exactly." i totally trusted my instinct on that one, and was amazed at how quickly he was to agree with that statement.

can any of you INTx's relate to his reply?

 

[Red Herring]

I empathize with your situation and hope it all works out. That being said, personally wouldn´t tell my SO I loved him on a daily basis nor expect him to do the same.

Gestures of affection are extremely meaningful to me and I am very careful about how I use them, overspending would mean inflation (=loss of meaning). When I kiss it means a lot, when I say "I love you", you bet your granny´s farm it´s serious!

I have been in zombie like love before once or twice, but in most amorous projects it rapidly turned out to not really work out. So I learned to be extra careful, tip-toe and slowly approach men, the moment something goes wrong I´ll withdraw (or try to, I´m still too lenient and trustful). So I understand his hesitation, especially directly after a serious relationships. I have observed a certain tendency towards interim flings after longer relationships. So if you meet somebody you really, really like directly after an important breakup, it would be normal to be careful and look extra closely if this is the next serious partner or just an interim thing. I want to be absolutely honest to myself and the other person. Just my two cents as a female INT. His perpective might vary significantly.

 

[AgentF]

oh and for the mildly curious, peanut galleryists, etc.: i have been accused by my friends of being overly-accommodating to this man. of jumping when he asks to spend time with me. of being generally too-available for him. of "not having my needs met."

in a sense, they are absolutely right. why would i do this for an inscrutable, shy, rather wafer-thin geek? a: his mind + his gentle, tender-hearted nature. this man instinctively understands me, can converse with me on the most esoteric of subjects, knows how to help me unravel my [sometimes] [mildly] convoluted suppositions about life and actually seems to enjoy discussing it all with me along the way. he understands. he may not be able to relate, but he understands. and on some level, though i don't understand or relate to him, i *accept* him. i accept that i can't change him and that i'm putting a hell of a lot of trust into the hands of someone who isn't sure if he wants to commit to me, purely out of regard for his intellectual and behavioral integrity. and i'm a catch! i don't suffer from low self-esteem or lack of options...but have searched high and low for a man like him. someone this self-aware, intellectually brilliant, and tender-hearted surely deserves all the patience and benefit-of-the-doubtness i can muster.

see? i'm in love.


/this is what torment looks like./