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[NT] ENFP confused by INTx

V

violaine

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ON AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT NOTE: he has repeatedly told me that his ex doesn't get hurt when they have sex after their break-up (which he precipitated citing reasons of incompatibility). i told him that is b.s., that women *always* feel emotionally bonded after sleeping with someone they used to love (and in her case, currently loves). i told him that, every time he sleeps with her, it prolongs the pain of their breakup and makes it impossible for either of them to fully heal. at least, perhaps for her. am i alone in this belief? can some women please comment?

She doesn't show she's hurt because while ever they are still sleeping together, they are still close. Btw, who knows what he's telling her. I'm sure if he stopped having sex with her that he would see how she really felt (i.e. likely hurt/angry.)

He is still sleeping with her when they are supposedly over and incompatible? That makes him kind of creepy imo. They are not over.

* i've been told that i'm awesome. that he's excited about me. that he hopes to have me in his life one way or another for a long time to come. that he has started to love me (most recently). but why the f*ck don't i merit an acknowledgement that he hurt me by sleeping with his ex on my birthday?! or a revision to his position on being exclusive, as a result of seeing that it hurt me and is jeopardizing a relationship with an awesome person? are we so common that he can gamble...is he so broken that he can't be any different.

Are you saying he is still going to be sleeping with his ex?

Tbh, the way you've told it, he doesn't sound good for you, you sound as though you are doing all of the accommodating or that you want something very different from what he wants. Have you considered that he may be manipulating you? Imo, there comes a time when motivations don't matter, actions matter.
 

copperfish17

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Yeah, the fact that he slept with his ex on your birthday is all I'd need to know. I think I was giving him too much credit before. This guy doesn't have your best interests at heart.

Seconded.

Being supportive vs. being a doormat...

You become a doormat when you stop speaking up for yourself, for whatever reason. Nobody can read your mind, or know there would be something there to read. You may think you are accommodating and generous but unless the other person realizes you have accommodated or given, they have no idea and think you had no preference or needs to begin with. If people aren't asking you what you want it's probably because they expect you to speak up and say when you want something. It works best when people just say what they want, and then you can know what everyone wants and makes sure each has their needs met. A doormat will go along with suggestions and comply with requests while remaining silent about their own wishes, and then because they aren't getting what they want they become unhappy, but still don't say anything. It's a trip.

Sound familiar?

When do you say 'enough'?

When you 'feel' that you are emotionally drained by this person, their situation, your part in supporting them, etc...

I'm a firm believer of the phrase, "We teach people how to treat us." Frankly, it seems to me that you (unintentionally) taught him to disrespect you by being wayyy too accommodating. You need to make it clear to him that having sex with his ex is not acceptable, and the best way to do this is to leave him (even if you choose not to leave him, you still need to make sure that he knows you won't tolerate any more offences). At this point, it seems to me that choosing to give him YET ANOTHER chance will only encourage him to go even further with his ex.

Does he even KNOW that his actions hurt your feelings? Does he CARE that your feelings may be hurt? You say you can't leave the relationship because of the (minute) possibility that he may truly love you, but... it seems like he isn't returning the favor. Surely he knows having sex with his ex has the potential to hurt your feelings.
 

Salomé

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agentfurrina said:
i just don't believe men and women can be friends after being romantically involved...i even tried convincing him that sleeping with his ex (who still wants to be with him) hurts her, but he said she claims she's ok with it.
Not without a decent break in between... if at all. Not unless you're a robot.
having a very hard time not concluding somewhere under the surface, he is a selfish person who is ok hurting others for his own gain. he's admitted he jumped in too soon in the past and doesn't want to repeat that mistake. i hate this nagging feeling that i'm a lamb being led to the slaughter...but he'd have to be a cold-blooded bastard to intentionally hurt me. i've repeatedly asked him to cut me loose if he *knows* that we can't be together, and he says that's not the case...that he isn't sure but is trying to decide. since when is love a decision?
Don't ignore your intuition. I think you already know the answer in your heart but you're resisting it because you don't want to admit you might be wrong about someone you're invested in.
what kind of person prioritizes "ending things on a good note" with his ex, as he puts it, over protecting the potential of a new relationship? i will never, never understand the logic behind this. how can someone who puts so much energy into being ethical and protecting those he cares about, be ok with a system where one confirmed woman and possibly a second (who is in denial about the affects of sleeping with her ex) get hurt, in order to satisfy his needs? INTJs *care* about integrity and honesty, or so i thought...i feel like i've bumped into a major blindspot of his. and it isn't attractive.
You should probably stop analysing this from a perspective of type because you are doing two things: excusing behaviour in him that you wouldn't excuse in non-INTs; attributing qualities to him (like integrity and honesty) that he may well not have. Any type can be an unethical fuck.

He is still sleeping with her when they are supposedly over and incompatible? That makes him kind of creepy imo. They are not over.
...
Have you considered that he may be manipulating you? Imo, there comes a time when motivations don't matter, actions matter.
+1
He asked for some time to get over his previous relationship. The fact that he is continuing to sleep with this woman and play both of you and doesn't even have the sensitivity to understand how he is hurting you both or the decency to express remorse, points to his being an unethical fuck.
Sorry to say. :hug:
 

Rex

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Jupp.. The chance that the Ex got him so badly by the balls is very slim to non existent.
 

AgentF

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this forum is amazing. thank you all so much for your input and insights.

some additional data points:
1. in all fairness, he told me on our 3rd date that he was still sleeping with his ex. he said that it was "tapering off" but still occurred. he said that he would be sad if I walked away from him, but would understand why I might want to. I saw a man who was trying to do the right thing (be honest with me), felt compassion and, foolishly perhaps, hope, and decided to go with my instinct which said "wait and see what happens." unfortunately, i did not say anything like "this is unacceptable to me" or "I am uncomfortable about this, how can we resolve this so I can feel safe getting to know you." he seemed so contrite about the situation, and so sincerely sad at the prospect of my walking away (his hands were trembling when he told me?!) that i felt that we understood each other's perspective. over the next several weeks, i would inquire about her being phased out and he eventually told me she was moving, but i guess i never sat down and told him after that how miserable i was with the situation. i thought it was *obvious* that i wanted an exclusive relationship. so i eventually told him a few week later, when he started bringing up his guilt and initiating conversations about feeling angst about his inability to give me what i deserved. but each time, i thought it was coming from a perspective of wanting to change things. now i just think he was simply stating that he felt badly, but had no plan or intention to change things. maybe bringing it up was his way of asking for my guidance. if so, i never got the hint and just listened and asked again for an exclusive relationship. he would repeat that he still needed to heal and didn't want to rush into a serious relationship yet again. i simply didn't know what to do, by then i had developed serious feelings for him. when he would initiate these relationship talks, i always told him what i wanted but assumed he also realized how badly i was being hurt. my bad for not being the communicator i should be...but i actually believe he was aware, but how could he know the extent if i didn't speak up. and i guess the reason i didn't, is that i perceived that he was unable to offer more, and that my only option was to walk. so i chose to continue to date him and see what transpired as talks of his ex seemed to be diminishing.

2. About a week ago I couldn't take it anymore. this was several days after my bday and i knew the instant that i saw him that he had slept with her on my bday...and, yes, he had texted me that night to wish me a happy birthday, sent me xoxo's. but i knew something was off when i saw him, so i asked and he confirmed. and i cried. and that is one of the last conversations we've had. he now knows i was devastated about his choice on my bday, that i am miserable with his lack of exclusivity, and that we have reached an impasse. he has asked me to make a choice that i would be happy with as he doesn't want me to be unhappy (in the "if you walk away from me, I will come find you one day and even if you turn me down, i will come back again" talk). i told him i needed time to know what i wanted to do.

so that's where i've been. detaching from him and deciding to either cut him out of my life, or date him over the next two months, non-exclusively (he will not budge on this, i asked) and see whether we truly are good for each other. an important shift is that i now want to know more about his moral compass...now i have concerns. and i no longer want him at all costs, i want what's right for me first. but you all are right to point out that i should have shown him how to treat me better and been more explicit about my requirements. it's just that it would have been over then and there.

so why have two otherwise intelligent people done this? it's my belief is that we struck a silent bargain at that restaurant on our 3rd date. he decided to downplay the extent and planned duration of his involvement with his ex (hoping that i would be there when it finally did end), and i decided to suppress my real feelings about his lack of exclusivity (hoping things would change towards exclusivity).

both deeply flawed courses of action. his infinitely more strategic/respectful of his needs. but now i have reached my limit and pulled away. the right thing to do is and always has been to say "call me when you're ready for an exclusive relationship." i've been gathering the courage to do this for the past week, and he knows something has changed. hence the texting me, the odd updates informing me that his ex moved*, and inquiries into whether i want to ever see him again. i simply don't know if i will walk away now that she's gone, but i do know now that i will be ok without him. i didn't how how it would feel to cut him out of my life, and it's felt good in a sense, but lonely.

there is no question that i love him, but now the question has been replaced with "who is he?" and, "is someone who let herself be a doormat, who suppressed her opinions even in a position to even want a relationship?" it's humbling to realize my role in all this, and realize that, even though i am loving and loyal, i might benefit from learning how to be loyal to me, how to be ok with some solitude and work on my communication skills.

* here's one for the behavioral scientists out there: after not responding to his texts for a few days while deep in thought over this past week, he finally sent me a text updating me on his ex, and telling me that he had dropped her off at the airport. he thought i should know. i guess i was glad to know she's physically gone, but stunned that he thought it appropriate to include that he actually took her to the airport.


p.s. pardon the typos, i am on a cell phone.
 

Red Herring

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so that's where i've been. detaching from him and deciding to either cut him out of my life, or date him over the next two months, non-exclusively (he will not budge on this, i asked) and see whether we truly are good for each other. an important shift is that i now want to know more about his moral compass...now i have concerns. and i no longer want him at all costs, i want what's right for me first. but you all are right to point out that i should have shown him how to treat me better and been more explicit about my requirements. it's just that it would have been over then and there.

So you are saying that you two only got as far as you have gotten because you relinquished what is essential for your happiness and every human being's god damn right to want for themselves. If you had insisted on being treated the way you wanted to and deserved to, it would have died in the seed. He still sleeps with his ex months after starting to date you and talking about wanting a relationship with you. That does not sound like he is trying very hard. Which is the main point. You can't force people's feelings, but you can expect them to be respectful and make concessions and a real effort if they want to get ahead with you. Doesn't that mean that there probably never was a real potential for the kind of relationship you actually want?

Your story reminds me of a horrible "relationship" I was in about ten years ago. He was almost six years older and much more experienced and played me like a jojo. I knew after two months that the thing had no future, but the thought of missing out on that imaginary potential relationship and the guy as I saw him (which had little to do with who he really was) hurt so much that I kept on hoping and bleeding insight for two whole years of on-ff-on-off maybe-yes-no-maybe-yes-no, etc!!! He enjoyed my attention and affection but didn't accomodate at all, I was a big net win for him, which is why he kept coming back for more.

The way things are now its his way or the highway. I sincerely hope and recommend you choose the highway!
 

Greta

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Let a million facepalms bloom:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

You're still making excuses for him. And he still doesn't value you half as much as you'd like, puppy dog faces notwithstanding. And it's still a horrible idea to start on such unequal footing. I'm amazed. Forget what he says .... and says ... and says and look at what he does.
 

JocktheMotie

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I love hopeful, jilted lover rationalizations. Some of my favorite things to read.
 

AgentF

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I love hopeful, jilted lover rationalizations. Some of my favorite things to read.

you're awful. but thank you for making me smile.

anyway, there is hope! i have pulled away. who here has successfully done this? cut and run while still in love? i want to hear about it, if so.
 

Tallulah

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Listen to the above posters, agentfurrina. You're being too accommodating of him. He doesn't deserve it. I think he was trying to have his cake and eat it, too. He's saying all the right things to you, and he might still be encouraging his ex, too. Really, you should just let him go. I foresee a lot of heartbreak if you keep trying to understand him and let him do things his way. At first, I thought it was reasonable to give him three months to get over his ex, but when you factor in the fact that he was still sleeping with her the whole time? And on your birthday, no less? Yeah, no. His actions are speaking louder than his words.

Edit: Good! Pull WAY away. I've walked away from someone whom I felt like I was accommodating too much. It was too soon to really be in love with him, but I definitely had feelings for him. It hurt, and was confusing for a little while, but time confirmed it was the right thing to do. I realized he was just going to move on and find someone else to accommodate him. And that I wouldn't be happy continuing the way things were. I realized I needed more.
 

JocktheMotie

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You're welcome :)

Good that you've finally come across the right decision. No idea how to get over limerence, but there is a thread on it.
 

rav3n

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Honey, you walked right into this one. Next time, no more blowing smoke and sunshine when the guy's blatantly not invested. Walk early and frequently.
 

AgentF

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i feel the need to replace him with ethanol. who here lives in the 7x7.
 

Red Herring

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Honey, you walked right into this one. Next time, no more blowing smoke and sunshine when the guy's blatantly not invested. Walk early and frequently.

Amen. But that takes some experience (at least I had to learn it the hard way). Can I ask how old you are, agentfurrina, or how often something like this has happened before?
 

Redbone

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just wanted to check back in. nothing has really changed, apart from some heavy deliberation on my part (i.e., trying to exorcize my feelings for him with no success). i had learned that he'd slept with his ex recently...he had told me he wasn't exclusive so didn't lie to me, but it still hurt as it happened on my birthday*. shitty, just shitty. so last week i told him i needed time to think and decide how i wanted to proceed: a) walk away; b) be friends--he says he wants me in his life one way or another; c) date for the 2 months he said he needs to decide whether he can commit to being with me in a long-term, exclusive relationship ultimately leading to marriage (= our individual relationship goals).

Honey, GTFO...NOW!

He's got you hanging on a string. Yeah, I know how it is when you can see that potential of something great happening hanging in front in you--that's the curse of the intuitive and it can be hard to put down. But this mess here? There's a right way and wrong way to do things and he's lining it all up so that someway somehow he wins.

:dont:

Hurt people end up hurting others. It's not his fault that he's still dealing with pain but he's going about trying to heal his pain in a way that will end up hurting you. If he can't do that or respect that, you need to walk and not look back.

Edit: Ah, I didn't see the last couple of posts. Good for you and good riddance to him. I'm sorry this has been so painful to you.
 

AgentF

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excellent point :shock:

i just crossed the dreaded 30 barrier. old enough to know better, i suppose. i once dated a man who was juggling several women at once. after a few rational discussions (definitely before love was involved), he decided to exclusively date me. he recently admitted that, had i walked away when he first told me about the other women in his life, he would have hunted me down anyway. i guess it never sunk in, otherwise i might have thought of doing the same thing with this guy.
 

slowriot

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it never works with multiple people at the same time, especially if you are looking for exclusivity.

So your female friends that came up with the idea of dating multiple guys, how long have they been married? :D
 

AgentF

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So your female friends that came up with the idea of dating multiple guys, how long have they been married? :D

only one is married. and i recently learned, has threesomes with her husband while on vacation. to spice up the marriage! the rest are wildly confused, chronically single, very smart (and very lonely) women.

the happily married women i know advised me to run, and invest in a set of batteries. :)
 

AgentF

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advised me to use him for sex. and sent me a link to redtube in case that didn't pan out.
 
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