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  1. #71
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsNorway View Post
    Don`t give him a ultimatum.
    ultimatums are odd to me, so agreed. i'm just going to be direct and concise and see how he reacts. i won't see him until NYE so not sure when a convenient time that night will present itself. prolly the next day (just after having ordered my cab so i can safely say what i need to say, then escape before too much emotion comes out ).
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
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  2. #72
    He who laughs
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    okay after reading the entire thread the dating other people to get a reaction out of him is wrong. Its going to make him distance himself from you.

    I basically agree with Metaphor. Be mature about it, take a conversation about where you want this to go. Make a plan or guidelines to how the stage of the relationship you are at should be like, what you need and what he needs. Show commitment and give a certain amount of compromise. Then give eachother some days to ponder. Its basically like a business deal. He gives you some, you give him some. Tell him you really want to commit to him but that you need to see some positive reaction from him aswell. If he bails to this, hes crazy and not worth your effort.

  3. #73
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^Agree with Metaphor. If someone is continuing to date other people, it's a sure sign to me not to take them seriously.
    If, at the same time, they expect me to get serious or increase my commitment to the relationship, I get pissed off. I don't even want to think about srs bizness unless the other person is already in the right place, and dating lots of people isn't the right place, IMO. At the same time, it's not an INTP's style to ask you to stop dating other people. We just sort of accommodate our own expectations and level of investment based on the other person. Or we move on.

    ETA. I can't even understand this idea of being "in love" with someone and at the same time hedging your bets by dating others. Other than as a ploy to make someone jealous - which is icky. Chances are, he doesn't believe your feelings for him have any depth and so of course, he's going to be reluctant to move the relationship forward at the pace you are looking for. INTPs are capable of incredible loyalty and commitment, but above all we're pragmatists.
    This. Especially the bolded. Part of the turtle pace is that we're not sure what we feel at 2 months in, and part of it is that we can't trust that you could be sure after that length of time. How do you know you'd want a committed relationship if you barely know us? How does he know you couldn't just as easily be madly in love with someone else as with him? It's hard for us to trust feelings that develop that quickly. Also, we really are pragmatists--sometimes we can be interested or intrigued by someone, but we can also foresee problems or compatibility issues down the road, and INTPs avoid drama at all costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Playing by the Rules (which is the advice most people give their friends when asked) seems like a sure fire way to scare away an INTP.
    Word on a word cracker with word sauce. Not only do we not play by dating rules, we're usually not even aware of them. Your friends are giving advice that might work on some other type, but not on an INTP. If you play games, he'll get confused or think you're flaky.

    Quote Originally Posted by agentfurrina View Post
    2 INT years = 2.5 ENFP months? Not to start a holy war but I have noticed that ENFPs seem to move at a different pace when bonding with people. In my case, it was easy to identify his virtues, vulnerabilities, subtle aspects of his character, etc. Almost an instant recognition (which sounds implausible and corny, but true).

    w/r/t detachment = I've been learning the same lesson with my INT. Intellectually/philosophically intriguing but emotionally challenging (but perhaps worth it, if you care about the person enough).
    It might be worth it to mention the bolded to him, because he's probably wondering how you can be so sure this early on. He probably wonders in the back of his head if you like HIM or the idea of love. I would, anyway. I am a chick, but there doesn't seem to be much difference, INTP-dating-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    I'm the same WRT seeing the potential in people. But at the end of the day it's just potential. I used to bond very quickly too. I feel like I can sympathize with what you are going through... *hugs*

    I would gently say that something I realized was that I couldn't compel someone into a relationship even when I knew it would be amazing. I think it's deeply unfair to overlay another person with one's own expectations. I just tried to cultivate actually caring about him as a person and he figured that out about me because I was genuine and acted accordingly. It made him trust me. That + a little luck won him over in the end.
    THISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHISTHIS. That's the key for me. You can't really control factors like attraction and readiness and all that, but if all those elements are good, then really, what I'm looking for is someone who really cares about ME as a person. Not someone else, not just my face or my body, not just a warm body to date, not the fact that you're ready to get married and have kids--someone who really gets me and cares about me. I need to know I can trust you. Then I'm yours. INTPs really are very loving, flexible and accommodating once they've made the commitment to you. But it does take a while to get there.

    I don't think INTP/ENFP is a perfect match, usually, because of the differences in needs and pace, but that's not to say it can't work.
    Something Witty

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    It might be worth it to mention the bolded to him, because he's probably wondering how you can be so sure this early on. He probably wonders in the back of his head if you like HIM or the idea of love.
    You know what? This is really good advice. If you really love him (or just really like him) you're probably have to hang in there for a while and show him, and dating other people with the intention of making him jealous is just probably going to make him think he was right to not trust you when you said you were sure of how you felt.

    I think it's inconceivable to some INTx that ENFPs can be so sure they like someone in a period of time that they see as being quick. They can't even fathom it, so you must either be lying or crazy, unless you prove otherwise. lol.

  5. #75
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    It might be worth it to mention the bolded to him, because he's probably wondering how you can be so sure this early on. He probably wonders in the back of his head if you like HIM or the idea of love. I would, anyway. I am a chick, but there doesn't seem to be much difference, INTP-dating-wise.
    To the wonderful INTx posters above:

    I have a wonderful update. Perhaps not what any of us were expecting, but here it is:

    The timely ass-kicking provided to me via this forum forced me to absolutely reject the way I had been going about this, and return to a more instinctive approach.* In short, I returned to my ENFP self and told myself that I was going for broke, I live once, and have only ever loved once before so why not carpe hominis?

    So yesterday/Christmas eve I texted him. I knew he was unhappy over the holidays as he isn't close with his family (they don't get him). But one of the ridiculous games/pieces of advice I'd been given was to give him space.** This was entirely counter-intuitive over the holidays, knowing that he was probably in emotional pain. So I asked him very simply how he was, and he confirmed his miserable state. I said that I was sorry about that, and then opened up to him. Told him I'd been miserable as well, tormenting myself by obsessing over Jungian/M-B/Kiersian personality typing, realizing what a flawed/weak human I am, and hating some of the choices I'd made. His immediate response was what my intuition told me it would be: he wrote "Tell me about a weakness." Rather than focus on his [unsolvable] family dilemma, he responded to: 1) my honesty/vulnerability, 2) a topic of psychological interest (which further served to: 3) get to know me better and 4) get his mind off his painful situation, albeit by reflecting on another). When I say I intuitively understand this man, it is because, among other things, I am somehow able to turn myself inside-out for him in ways that strangely interest him.***

    So what followed was a beautiful dialogue. No, I didn't talk to him about wanting to date exclusively, wanting a commitment, any of that. You all helped me see things differently. Instead of care about the end result, I returned to the very simple fact that I care about this man deeply and just want to be close to him and understand him. Do whatever I can to establish trust, mutual respect, honesty, and let love follow (or not). And last night, we took a very meaningful step towards that. After regaling him with one of my weaknesses, I asked if it was ok to pose a series of questions to him. He said, of course, so I fired them off. For those who care to know, I asked about his internal motivation for various things...when his inner little boy came out...how he handled anger...his thoughts on what attracted him to me. He replied to each and, yes, he timed it.*****

    He ended the textathon by stating that my end of the conversation was the reason he was attracted to me. When all I had done, really, was be transparent about myself and interest in understanding him. I later curled up into a ball under the covers and cried a few tears of joy. Impossible to explain, but I knew that by revealing myself, leaving games behind and engaging him in open, honest dialogue he cared for me just a bit more.

    So f*ck conventional wisdom. I am sticking to my guns and leaving insecurity and fear of rejection at the door. I love this man and will let that guide my actions instead. I do plan to let him know I'm ready for a committed relationship, but feel much more able to say it with detachment than before. Irony's a beautiful thing...

    In the interim, thank you. My family has pronounced me officially mental for resorting to a forum populated by strangers to help understand relationship issues. I take it as a sign of intelligence that I/we do.

    * tangential: is this what is meant by Fe?
    ** coincidentally, this is the very reason I turned to this forum.
    *** i'd bet my first-born child that the reason he responds so quickly to me when I open up (apart from liking honesty), is that he is able to heal and/or better understand himself my listening to my externalized inner torment.****
    **** but then again, we're both deeply interested in philosophy.
    ***** INTJboy gave me an actual cut-off time! He said he'd be happy to talk but only until x pm. And answered the final question at precisely x pm. I can only smile about this kind of thing, an ENFP would let the house burn down around us if engaged in a meaningful conversation, but not an INTx...and I find that sense of boundaries/structure utterly endearing.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


    7w6 ❣ sx/so ❤ physical touch ❥ sanguine 70%, choleric 30% ❦

    Johari.

  6. #76
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    That is fantastic news!

  7. #77
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Sounds great! You're both getting to be yourselves, but still flexing a bit for each other and intriguing each other...sounds good to me.
    Something Witty

  8. #78
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    I don't get it.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Greta's Avatar
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    Instead of care about the end result, I returned to the very simple fact that I care about this man deeply and just want to be close to him and understand him. Do whatever I can to establish trust, mutual respect, honesty, and let love follow (or not).
    Wisdom. You've got it.

    He said he'd be happy to talk but only until x pm. And answered the final question at precisely x pm. I can only smile about this kind of thing, an ENFP would let the house burn down around us if engaged in a meaningful conversation, but not an INTx
    An INTP might.

  10. #80
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    he sounds like an e5. not sure about 5w4 or 5w6.

    the worst thing about 5s and especially 5w4 is the inherent sense of separation, of isolation. you feel fundamentally cut off from others, and you feel like no one sees you because you are so airy, such diffuse mindspace, so disembodied. but like you're drifting away from the world, that you'll become ghostly, that no one understands you or even could understand you. and it's combined with a sense of being unable to change the situation, of being incapable of action, of being overwhelmed by the glass that keeps you out of the world no matter how many times you try to shatter it. 5w6, on the other hand, is more on the lookout for being coerced, for being forced or pushed, and more vigilant against such things. he is also more reliant on empirical results to really test anything on the road to trust. that could be quite relevant as well! so 5w6s are more fearful of trust for reasons of empirical reliability whereas 5w4s are more distrustful for fear of being defective as an empty mindspace with no real detectable human presence when deep down we feel like we are MORE HUMAN than the rest of the population.

    also, he sounds like an intj. distinct Te signals, and with intjs, you have to factor in that their Te implementational sense will often override their emotions. they will feel them going in one direction but be better at maintaining the pre-established non-experiential hierarchy of purpose and meaning that they've constructed, their goal structure, etc.

    also, you're right, the change is everything. my last relationship only got off the ground because she was willing to see me on terms outside of the terms that others imposed. your comment about being a former model is EXACTLY the kind of thing that makes us lose this tremendous enthusiasm, this tremendous hope for REAL SHARING which is at the core of what we have to offer (although this might be filtered through my Fe eyes), it just weakens our already such weak weak faith. faith is the hardest thing, certainty is the hardest thing, knowing is the hardest thing. because we're always stuck holding back, we're always afraid we'll get overdrawn and have nothing left, we hoard ourselves our energies and most of all our life because we are afraid of losing our own inner worlds which is what makes us what-->who we are. we are nothing without our vision (or, in Ti types, our immense story/systems). the comment you make to yourself, that easy justification and acceptance of what the social reality says (as what you deserve and what he is not giving you according to what your rank in society says you should get), wielding teh social reality against him that he feels so fundamentally disconnected from (and potentially distrustful of--i sure do, just as a kind of default stance that i have to overcome, because it doesn't recognize me or see me as i am at all but instead always makes me feel like i'm completely left off the map and the langauge and the values that others have) is such a serious kind of paranoid fear/phobia. this is kind of how e5 types test that out when they haven't come to terms with it. sincerity, honesty, if we can really see you, if you really understand us, and, especially for an infj 5 with an enp 7, if we feel like we have a sense of your PRIORITIES, well then, everything can instantaneously change. but we are very cautious until we feel that we have shared not only that fundamental sense of shared recognition, shared validation of each other, where we both see each other and ourselves and the US at the same time in a way that seems authentic and true, but also until we feel like we have a sense of how that fits into your basic priorities, a hierarchy, a sense of privilege and purpose. because we live by different rules, and we have such, if not different needs, different coping mechanisms that create extraneousnesses and other added weighty baggage needs. and we do not have the same techniques for avoiding pain or maintaining optimism that you do. and we are just as terrified of them, of those states, and the fear of pain is THE BARRIER in almost all of these situations, to be able to see why you are doing what you are doing, what is at stake, and whether or not the discomfort and pain is worth it to make it through this process. the communicative bandwidth with Ni-Ne doms is pretty amazing, but all the echoes in that immense tunnel can really jack up the paranoia.

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