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  1. #41
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    True. Kind of like building an organized warehouse. Eventually, if all of the functions are used in a sequental order you can withdraw and put information in any area within it and be able to attain it at anytime. The standard is the 'warehouse being organized'. Even that in itself is different for each person, so perhaps the recollection of any given information within a second or so.
    Yes.
    On the other hand.
    The linear order is subjective.
    Non-linear order is objective.

    Sequence does not count.
    You do.

  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    It depends a lot on upbringing and life experience. The combination of those two things for me meant that I ended up with high Fe for an INTP. My mom is super Fe aware, so she would always point out how my actions or words affected others, and she made me attuned to the hospitality end of things. I think feeling kind of socially clueless as a kid and teen made me study group dynamics and learn to fine-tune my senses to be aware of what was expected. The last thing I wanted was to be a socially inept nerd--which still pains me to see in other INTPs.
    Verbatim. Grew up around a LOT of ISFJs, and I was also raised within Christian religion, so I was kind of forced to be painfully aware of other people's feelings and the impact of my behavior on them. It did not mean I didn't have typical INTP leanings -- into my 20's, I had a lot of angst about 'social pressure to conform,' felt like people were far too thin-skinned and needed to be less emotional and/or take more responsibility for their own feelings, and still generally leaned towards "everyone needs to take care of themselves," I loathed people who were codependent and/or too enmeshed... but raising kids and being in other positions of responsibility at that point gave me a lot of life experience in terms of realistic emotional needs, so I learned to make more allowance for some things and also respect healthy relational bonds rather than being so stolidly independent-minded all the time.

    At this point in my life, having veered way too far into feeling responsible for other people's feelings, I've been stabilizing back near the middle again and am happy to be there.

    For me, it manifests in wanting group harmony and compromise. I like for people to think before they say something that might hurt others' feelings. I like for them to think about how their actions or words affect others. I don't have a lot of natural patience for people acting first, seeing the negative social consequences, and then apologizing later. I take people's feelings into account in real life--probably more than most of my other friends do--but I don't like indulging people's private emotions and preferences if they haven't considered that they might need to also compromise for the good of the group overall. I don't mind being questioned if the person questioning is respectful in their approach. I don't know how much of this is Fe. :-P
    I'm not sure either. It's a "rational" view -- equanimity AKA balance. What I find is that I want to respect diversity as much as I can, since I see people as unique, with unique narratives, and EVERYONE benefits when uniqueness is allowed to thrive... but unfortunately if everyone is marching to the beat of a different drummer, group cohesion will be derailed. Therefore there has to be some level of compromise when people enter join a community. You sacrifice RAW/unlimited freedom to do and say whatever you want for the benefits of having support and connection with others, and you do this by empathizing with them and getting a sense of who they are and what matters to them, and you use your own freedom to make room for them in the circle. I'm very rational about it: It's okay if you don't want to sacrifice anything, but then you should take the responsibility to get the hell out of the group because you are no longer being fair (AKA considerate). I use my intuitive sense and past life experience with lots of people as a form of empathy in terms of figuring out what sort of space I need to give others and to sense the group dynamics at work.

    Anyway, Fe for me is a tool I use to create balance and invest the maximum amount of freedom into the system as possible before it starts to break down. (That's the problem with chaos -- not enough of it, and order becomes stultifying, but too much chaos and it becomes a cancer that destroys the system.)

    I also personally use it as a 'socially transparent lexicon' I can use when I'm not sure or perceptive of my own feelings. I might not know how I feel, and I might not even like people (or I might like them too much), and the social Fe lexicon gives me a very explicit set of rules I can follow to express myself rationally without getting lost in the ambiguous and sometimes overwhelming world of vague personal emotion. If I want someone to know I'm positively inclined toward them, I know what to say and do to get that across; if I want to draw a hard boundary to keep them away from my vulnerable personal areas, I know how to do that too, without much explosion or muss or fuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP
    i agree that functions are perspectives. when did i say that they arent? you see, its just that different type of perspectives lead to different type of answers.

    there are flaws in mbti simply because functions have been simplified too much from the real psychological functions that people use. there are more brain regions that process information in different ways than there are functions in mbti and mbti functions are just sets of these actual functions working together in a way that they usually work. so there arent really so strict ways how the functions work, because they are compilations of many actual functions. some things what you said is in contrary of other stronger functions or just clear misunderstanding caused by putting too much weight on facts and putting the facts together without thinking why these facts should be the ones that go hand in hand.
    Agreed. Again, it's just a simplified framework that can be useful to isolate particular behaviors, but the human psyche and brain is not nearly that clean-cut, and functions actually probably bleed into each other. I tend to also see the nature of these tendencies as a lot like light (which can be both a wave and a particle), just as we end up describing these things as both functions as well as perspectives.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    And there in lines the point. Functions don't generate answer at all. To do that they would need to be skill sets or abilities and there not. You can try to asses them that way if you feel like it, but the more time you spend looking at it, the less sense it makes. I think that's why many people get thrustrated with the whole theory and throw it out.

    Functions are motivations (Or perspectives as Eric B puts it). They are representative of the drives that people have to act or think in a particular way. The first two are those drives that are most intrinsic and familar to use - thus my objection. Why would the most familiar motivations cause confusion over what we want to get out of something? Surely those motivations we explore the least readily will be the most foriegn and puzzling.

    If you want to look at them as perspectives, as is Eric point of view (Please forgive the pun, Eric, if you read this!) then why do we get confused when looking at the world in our usual light? Confusion comes when we are forced to look at it in a new, unfamiliar way.
    Thank you. Though the term was coined by Sim, and coupled with insight I was gaining from Lenore, it all fit together as the best way to express it.

    Fe for an INTP, rather than so much something we "use", is just a lesser conscious perspective, where we feel a sense of inferiority, trusting our dominant internal thinking more instead. Hence, we deep down inside "aspire" to social values, and this will likely come more into consciousness when we get older (and we expand more past our preferred perspectives).
    Then, we may begin manifesting more of the behaviors associated with "Fe use".
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  4. #44
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    If an entp starts to loosen his egotrip and to actually listen to other people, the Fe in istps or intps is quite easily visible. I didnt know what I was missing
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #45
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    this is an old thread, granted, but i'd say I have a high "Fe". I know what to say not to offend others, or what is appropriate in given contexts. if anything, i use this to my advantage when needs be.

    I generally reckon that emotion and self-interest is often the key to getting what one wants in life (,i.e. what one wants from others, since people ultimately only give a shit about themselves).

  6. #46
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Yesterday my mom was texting me about Brave New World and a critique of it I showed her, and then she said, "just talked with grandma. She mentioned how happy she was that she got to spend time with you. She was very impressed with your guitar playing and the games we played."

    I dunno, I have a problem with stuff like this. It's flattery. It's almost insulting. I have a lot of things I like to talk about, but why should we focus on ME and the mere fact that I like and am good at things? That's not the interesting part.

    Fe is hollow. You can't have a particularly real interaction with someone using Fe, yet that's how my family has gotten on for years. Small talk. Compliments and gestures so stale and perfunctory they feel robotic. Fe is what you use to be popular. It's about interaction on a large scale, making the correct moves, being there at the right events, saying the right things to the right people, cultivating a charming personality, adorning it with whatever material goods or fashions are appropriate to their image as "someone who fits in". The problem I have with that is, again, once you get to know these people better and spend significant time with them, they are a bore. Actually, that's the kind of thing they try to avoid. They like to be on the go, always busy with some event, never spending much time to deepen their thoughts.

    (coincidentally I have alluded several times recently to my inability, yet eligibility, to be in a relationship because I am the opposite of all those things and no one digs deep enough to really know me. The only appeal to me IS what comes from knowing me well. I have no superficial appeal, other than my body itself, and no propensity to achieve status.)

    There's nothing to talk about with those people. I've spent years, actually, wondering what most people talk about amongst themselves all the time. I still don't really know. Maybe they don't really care about talking about interesting things. To me that was always the only apparent purpose to talk at all. I think I'm slowly beginning to realize, though, that these types simply don't care if what they are talking about is interesting (unless it's some juicy gossip, they love that.. but who doesn't I guess). They are just looking to affirm and carry out their roles with each other. An example:

    My mom and my sister came to visit. Both have aux. Fe. They were talking to each other flatly about boring family and friend happenings and routine life. I brought up the topic of how 3d printing will change the world, and we got into what I saw as a fun, spirited debate. It carried on for a while, but they ultimately complained about it and wanted to change the topic. So apparently being engaged is less important to them than talking about things normal people talk about, or something. After that conversation ended they went back to talking about some cousins or something, and the shift back to boring was palpable. I think they realized that, actually, that's how pronounced it was. Everybody just "went polite" again, and it felt empty.

    Was it what they really wanted? I don't think so. People can't actually resist engagement, not when it's right in front of them. The problem is that Fe dominates society, and they aren't used to that sort of thing happening, so they are taken aback at first, they don't realize that they could like that kind of thing. So I ultimately had my way. The technology discussion creeped back into the conversation now and then for the rest of their visit.

  7. #47
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Inferior feeling is literally Hitler.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #48
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Inferior feeling is literally Hitler.
    ?? so all IxTPs are Hitlers? Hitler was a psychopath..

  9. #49
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Inferior feeling is literally Hitler.
    Which is why isolating it inside a bunker until it kills itself is really the best thing for everyone.



  10. #50
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    ?? so all IxTPs are Hitlers? Hitler was a psychopath..
    ITPs aren't the only inferior feelers.

    Just the most emo.

    (Also, yes.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Which is why isolating it inside a bunker until it kills itself is really the best thing for everyone.
    I always did think that intuition was kind of the Eva Braun of the functions...
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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