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  1. #21
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Not necessarily. As a matter of Fact, Fe's primary function is manipulation.
    As a matter of Fact, a tool user's primary function is manipulation.

    political statements 101 kiddo.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #22
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I identify with the basic gist of both of your examples (and I do have an idea. I think I'm closer to the right type now. That or INTP. It wasn't Fi at all). One funny thing is how "respecting" the Fe side in myself shows up is when I'm just acutely aware of consequences.. Say, for example, somewhere like here. I enjoy bullshitting around here, so I don't really want to sabotage myself. Sometimes I speak my mind, and sometimes it may take me an hour just to phrase something. It's as if I have that monkey from Family Guy on my back, telling me not to go certain places. I used to give less of a shit.
    If you have to deal with the Evil Monkey In The Closet I feel sorry for you.

    ITPs can indeed be respecting. Fe is about what you feel needs to be done on a social level, rather than being directly emotions caused by social interaction. The primary Ti of ITPs creates a sense of value for certain things and by extention they are likely to respect other people who show/embody those things. The strong shadow Fi can be associated with a similar effect, even if they don't persue such things so vigourously themselves.

    I suspect that Bruce Lee was an ISTP. He could be quite respectful of other martial artists, even as he strove to be better than them. That's the sort of difference between a Ti orientated value and an Fe style act.

    Of course, like I said, there are some ITPs who go the other way and dislike any competition. As with all inferiors, they often struggle to find a middle ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    you talk about social position and competitiveness in same thing, this doesent match at all. are you trying to say that intps tend to compete for their social position?

    do you have some intp friend that tends to compete with you all the time? i got an intj friend who i tend to compete with about everything and it has nothing to do with Fe, its more like battle of Te vs Ti. it might have characteristics of alpha males battling, but its not really about social position at all, its just a fun activity for my Ti, i couldnt care less about social position since we are all friends. its just fun to own Te you see.
    Yes. Alpha male battling - that's social jockying. There is more to the idea of social position than just a formal statement of upper, middle, working class or whatever. Even convicted criminal in jail have social levels. That almost pack level of social class sorting is the level poor Fe will sometimes work at.

    i do tend to compete rarely with my entp friend too, but its more like drunken wrestling(or other physical activity) and i dont care if i win or lose, its all about fun and i dont see it effecting to my social position at all. i dont have this urge to compete with F types.

    Fe + competition shouldnt be used in same sentence imo. Fe is about creating harmony and competition is braking harmony and it cant really be used to balance it either, creating harmony comes from good things, competition is the opposite if used as form of manipulating anything.
    Fe isn't about harmony. FJs can be quite inharmonious when they see something they feel needs to be changed. I had an ESFJ great-great arnt who would often batter people into submission through shear force of personality, especially if she felt like they deserved it. That doesn't stop her from being a primary Fe though. She saw a social need and would respond to it, and she wouldn't stop responding till the poor bastard on the recieving gave up. She was one of the suffragettes, chaining herself to iron gates and protesting in the streets. In short, she raised one hell of a noise when a job needed doing. It's that need that defines Fe doms, not a desire for harmony.

    5 is all about Ne and seeing the possible opportunities that Ne gives(and because of what if there will be a better opportunity). because seeing the possible opportunities, its not the preferred way to make a commitment since that might end up being the wrong decision when/if new opportunities arise. because of these possible opportunities, its hard for Ti to make a decision about commitment and P types tend not to make a decision of any kind if they are not sure about it.
    So you are saying that an INTPs highest functions are the ones that cause them to become indecisive and uncertain? That turns the theory inside out. Those are the areas they are most sure of themselves. They may make mistake, as intelligence is outside function theory... but being paralysed into confused inaction? Unlikely. I think the weak Si (certainty of knowledge) and Fe (action towards social needs) are far more likely.

    your variations about how Fe manifests in intp seems like classic case of intj not understanding whats going on. my intj friend makes this kind of mistakes all the time, its about Te seeing only the facts, but Ni composing a twisted picture about the whole. it happens because Te doesent look behind the scene, and Ni forms opinion about Te facts and what weak Se tells about what seems to be. i bet empathetic type of thinking of Fi has something to do with this, because it can lead the person to false image, due to too much unconscious assuming.
    Reading this, and some of the other things you have written, lead me to believe you are using a very different set of ideas of what the functions are. I don't agree with what you think Fe, Te, Ne or Se (probably not the other four either). With no common ground for what function theory even does, I doubt this will go any where useful, so I'm inclined to call it a day.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Yes. Alpha male battling - that's social jockying. There is more to the idea of social position than just a formal statement of upper, middle, working class or whatever. Even convicted criminal in jail have social levels. That almost pack level of social class sorting is the level poor Fe will sometimes work at.
    but that alpha male battling has nothing to do with social status for me, its just pure entertainment -> its nothing as you described, and since its just pure fun, its not about some social position and Fe that you are talking about.
    what i meant with that last part about "classical intj not understanding the situation", was exactly this. Te sees battle, Fi makes an assumption that this person wants to challenge me, Se sees what is happening and Ni puts these parts together in a twisted way, simply because none of those functions are aimed to look at why this person is doing this, and getting to the conclusion using objective deduction and trying to see behind the actions.

    Te sees that the person is challenging me and decides that i must do a counter attack or i will lose.
    Fi generates unconscious subjective simulation about the reasons why the other persons is acting like this and challenging me. because of the subjective nature of this simulation, the intj is using his own reasons on why this person is using this type of approach, not the intps reasoning. and because of the unconscious nature of this simulation, the intj is not able to see why this would be true or false, he just feels that he is attacking because this.
    Se just sees whats going on, again without looking behind the show and trying to understand why.
    Ni just puts all of these together, generating view of the big picture and the intj is convinced that this is how it goes because he trusts this function so much and doesent question it.

    but what ever, i bet you are just as stubborn as my friend and you wont understand this and challenge your Ni, even tho it should be crystal clear to anyone who is able to read.


    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    So you are saying that an INTPs highest functions are the ones that cause them to become indecisive and uncertain? That turns the theory inside out. Those are the areas they are most sure of themselves. They may make mistake, as intelligence is outside function theory... but being paralysed into confused inaction? Unlikely. I think the weak Si (certainty of knowledge) and Fe (action towards social needs) are far more likely.



    Reading this, and some of the other things you have written, lead me to believe you are using a very different set of ideas of what the functions are. I don't agree with what you think Fe, Te, Ne or Se (probably not the other four either). With no common ground for what function theory even does, I doubt this will go any where useful, so I'm inclined to call it a day.
    what theory is it turning upside down? the one that says that types are lead mainly by their first and second function? do you think that lower functions are the ones that cause uncertainty in the type? if so its just that when using the lower functions the type is uncertain if the function is giving him the right answer, again classical intj thinking to not to be able to tell these totally different two things apart.

    instead of just saying that you disagree with me, try to explain whats wrong with my idea of the functions and why yours is the right one or this will last forever.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Your saying Inferior Fe makes way for selfishness? How is inferior Fe related to selfishness?
    If you conform to the whole in attempt to take over and control the whole for your own purposes. Ti judges that the use of Fe only works when wanting to get something specific from a group and if this is the only motive behind your action it can be seen as selfish. Technically it's a blind spot in Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Intuition. If Fe were more of a power player like in an ENTP the two front-runners would be able to see many possiblities for the Fe. So it's Fe's fault for being inferior and Ne-Ti's fault for not being able to see a wider range of purposes for it. Circular, but it does end when you realize that Fe has several more purposes than just to gain something for yourself.

  5. #25
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    As a matter of Fact, a tool user's primary function is manipulation.

    political statements 101 kiddo.
    I don't get it. Could you explain, mister?

    --
    Btw, Undeveloped Judging Function simply means Bad Judging. Nothing else. Further ideas are only bullshit tendencies.

    Also, Inferior Fe =/= Undeveloped Fe.

  6. #26
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    If you conform to the whole in attempt to take over and control the whole for your own purposes. Ti judges that the use of Fe only works when wanting to get something specific from a group and if this is the only motive behind your action it can be seen as selfish. Technically it's a blind spot in Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Intuition. If Fe were more of a power player like in an ENTP the two front-runners would be able to see many possiblities for the Fe. So it's Fe's fault for being inferior and Ne-Ti's fault for not being able to see a wider range of purposes for it. Circular, but it does end when you realize that Fe has several more purposes than just to gain something for yourself.
    Well....the "self" bit here is rather vague, at least to my eyes. First of all, can we not define having a value of "helping others" as a self-oriented act? It acts within one's personal value, not some objective feat. Fe may have direct connection to collective value but INTP's may not necessarily go according to collective value.

  7. #27
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I do not mean inferior to be weak, only below.

  8. #28
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Well....the "self" bit here is rather vague, at least to my eyes. First of all, can we not define having a value of "helping others" as a self-oriented act? It acts within one's personal value, not some objective feat. Fe may have direct connection to collective value but INTP's may not necessarily go according to collective value.
    So you are helping others as end of itself and not the means? If so this is what Fe, or a healthy user and perhaps a dom- Fe user would be best at, on that I can agree, but in the scope of an INTP's function to see Fe as an end is not likely because of your last statement. Ti needs that logical reason to help others, that's the barrier that creates the motive behind Fe.

  9. #29
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    what theory is it turning upside down? the one that says that types are lead mainly by their first and second function? do you think that lower functions are the ones that cause uncertainty in the type? if so its just that when using the lower functions the type is uncertain if the function is giving him the right answer, again classical intj thinking to not to be able to tell these totally different two things apart.

    instead of just saying that you disagree with me, try to explain whats wrong with my idea of the functions and why yours is the right one or this will last forever.
    And there in lines the point. Functions don't generate answer at all. To do that they would need to be skill sets or abilities and there not. You can try to asses them that way if you feel like it, but the more time you spend looking at it, the less sense it makes. I think that's why many people get thrustrated with the whole theory and throw it out.

    Functions are motivations (Or perspectives as Eric B puts it). They are representative of the drives that people have to act or think in a particular way. The first two are those drives that are most intrinsic and familar to use - thus my objection. Why would the most familiar motivations cause confusion over what we want to get out of something? Surely those motivations we explore the least readily will be the most foriegn and puzzling.

    If you want to look at them as perspectives, as is Eric point of view (Please forgive the pun, Eric, if you read this!) then why do we get confused when looking at the world in our usual light? Confusion comes when we are forced to look at it in a new, unfamiliar way.

    This is also why I also oppose your views about certain functions not looking behind the scences. Again, I'd say that no function does that, because they are just what helps us to determine what we want. Seeing the tenebrous and obfuscal is a function of intelligence, which is not governed by the theory. At best, it indicates where one focus most of their efforts and in one genreral areas they will find such obscurities.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  10. #30
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I don't get it. Could you explain, mister?

    --
    Btw, Undeveloped Judging Function simply means Bad Judging. Nothing else. Further ideas are only bullshit tendencies.

    Also, Inferior Fe =/= Undeveloped Fe.
    I mean that manipulation is mostly used as a somewhat or clearly negative term when people face other people better at what they do than they are themselves.
    I don't mean you, i don't know you, i'm describing the use of the term and how it mostly shows the vision of the world the speaker conveys rather than describe any structurally different type of human interactions.


    Btw, Undeveloped Judging Function simply means Bad Judging. Nothing else. Further ideas are only bullshit tendencies.

    Also, Inferior Fe =/= Undeveloped Fe.
    On a side note, that statement doesn't make much sense. If it's bad it's actually more of a value judgement than 'underdevelopped'. And under developped would be say, some quantitative (non binary like good\bad)way of rating something. But then it all depends on what you're comparing it to (since under implies the use of another norm) (so does developped to a lesser extent)
    I do get the whole internal vs external frame of reference etc., it's just that a non negligable quantity of individuals don't seem to understand what comes out of their mouth so I educate them and such. When i can be bothered.
    I generall dont, since saying that sort of things hints at poorly internalised knowledge (poor reprocessing), and therefore a lower chance of me having a meaningful impact and my words \ time being work efficient.

    And a good day to you sir
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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